When do your hives wake up from winter and how do you spring manage?

[eltalia]

G'day.
Having visited polystyrene (coolite) years ago to find the product wanting on a
number of levels I am revisiting the concept using manufactured polystyrene
board - this road as the homemade version emits gases for some time unknown
after construction, and it can get very messy and so costly.
As I am applying the concept into a topbar hive structure there are a number of
hurdles in construction to overcome. My first attempt binned, the second is
coming along nicely to hopefully show itself in the coming 44+C days this
November- Feburary should bring.
Not a haphazard build, I have applied what I do know in design using
means as the tools linked to. Those interested in hive body insulation may
benefit from studying such variances over wood and synthetic structures.

https://www.thermaxxjackets.com/insulation-ratings-r-factor-k-factor-c-factor/
http://surfing.wikia.com/wiki/Coolite
http://www.jaycompdevelopment.com/walk-in-cooler/polystyrene-vs-polyurethane/

Cheers.


Bill

[220]

Just thought I would revisit this thread seeing we are only a few days from the official start of spring.
While much of Aus is basking in almost summer temperatures we had snow yesterday and haven't seen a daytime temp above low teens since May. I have had small amounts of pollen coming in for over a month but very little if any nectar. My hives were still loosing weight so I started feeding sugar a month ago.
While we might not have a winter by northern standards my first winter with bees has high lighted just how important locality is. I thought I had left them with more than ample stores but it doesn't appear to be the case.
I guess the flip side is once spring does arrive if last season is a guide I should have around 8 months with some sort of flow.

[eltalia]

Just thought I would revisit this thread seeing we are only a few days from the official start of spring.

We in FNQ have just had a few cool nights, 220, on the back of weeks of idylic days
and nights... so maybe the "depths of Winter" is late this year ?

While much of Aus is basking in almost summer temperatures we had snow yesterday and haven't seen a daytime temp above low teens since May. I have had small amounts of pollen coming in for over a month but very little if any nectar. My hives were still loosing weight so I started feeding sugar a month ago.
While we might not have a winter by northern standards my first winter with bees has high lighted just how important locality is.

Not as important as having the infrastructure of a colony well set for a long dearth, be
it wet weather or cold weather. I am not pointing to stores.

I thought I had left them with more than ample stores but it doesn't appear to be the case.

Being relatively new to the game it would likely not bee wise to overlook basic stuff on
a whim. Yet some aspects of what we subject bees to are worth questioning if only to
have the logic explained, maybe that is the purpose of those forums focused on Q&A
content for new players.
So maybe thinking about how bees utilise the energy stored resources provide is 
worth exploring, when we know standard box builds are around 19mm of solid timber
regardless of location. It is why I am trying the "coolite box" previously mentioned, the
clue coming from our native bee (Trigona) which has no ventilation system and uses a
minimum of 50mm of solid timber as the hive wall.
I include an image of a small apiary of which the owner boasts a successful wintering...
... buggered if I can see how when tbe only winter protection the fellow runs is maybe a
full Medium box of honey!
I call that good luck more than good management.

I guess the flip side is once spring does arrive if last season is a guide I should have around 8 months with some sort of flow.

.. and no fires, hey ?

Cheers.

Bill

(edited numeral typo)

[Acebird]

I include an image of a small apiary of which the owner boasts a successful wintering...
... buggered if I can see how when tbe only winter protection the fellow runs is maybe a
full Medium box of honey!

They cluster when it is below 50F and they don't eat much when it is below 40F.  small hives need relatively a small amount of stores.

[eltalia]

I include an image of a small apiary of which the owner boasts a successful wintering...
... buggered if I can see how when tbe only winter protection the fellow runs is maybe a
full Medium box of honey!

They cluster when it is below 50F and they don't eat much when it is below 40F.  small hives need relatively a small amount of stores.

I am going to morph this response into a new topic in the main forum.
Your postings here are just going to befuddle some Aussie readers.

....stay tooned.

Compliments.

Bill

[220]

How does constantly breaking cluster and reforming effect stores consumption.
To give you a idea of why Im asking the temp range here for the past 5 days is as follow
23-53
24-52
39-49
25-55
24-57

While my night temps are certainly cold enough to have them densely clustered day temp are warm enough to have them breaking cluster and flying, it would be unusual for us to get more than 2 or 3 days in a row with a maximum temp below 45f to keep them clustered.

[Acebird]

It is going to raise consumption considerably but not as much as what you would expect in an active summer hive.  I would assume but don't know that if the temps are going that low at night then there is no nectar coming in.  Is that true?

[220]

No nectar that I can see, a little pollen.

As a first year beek I have really struggled with what to expect. You mentioned them not using as much as summer but despite most people in Aus saying last season was the worst for beekeeping down under in decades my hives continued to put on weight from when I started late spring right through Autumn so didn't experience a dearth to get an idea of consumption.

The nearest and closest city climate wise to me would be Canberra, temps are comparable but there are 2 major differences. Being a city of nearly half a million there are numerous introduced species, most in that area have had nectar coming in for some time. The other is rainfall. my average is 50" against 25" which goes a long way to explaining the lack of a spring/summer/autumn dearth.

I will work it out eventually but it is hammering home just how locality driven bee keeping is. Unlike most of Australia I do have a winter with a extended cold period and dearth. Closer I guess to what most in the USA experience but unlike a lot of it my daytime temps are warm enough for bees to regularly break cluster. I guess this combination may well see my hives require more in the way of winter stores than either

[Acebird]

The US covers 11 of the 13 climate zones...

[eltalia]

No nectar that I can see, a little pollen.
As a first year beek I have really struggled with what to expect. You mentioned them not using as much as summer but despite most people in Aus saying last season was the worst for beekeeping down under in decades... (edit)

... more to do with flora than temps.

... my hives continued to put on weight from when I started late spring right through Autumn so didn't experience a dearth to get an idea of consumption.

Luck and Location.. end of.

I will work it out eventually but it is hammering home just how locality driven bee keeping is. Unlike most of Australia I do have a winter with a extended cold period and dearth.

And the rest of us Aussies have extreme Wet and extreme Dry...compared to ACT.
Really, it is very small pockets at high altitudes in the most southerly Aussie
climes that can even mimic a Panhandle(USA) historical weather chart.
In short.. bees are do not know where they are, geographicly, Man does.
And bees cannot post to the iNetz. Period

Closer I guess to what most in the USA experience but unlike a lot of it my daytime temps are warm enough for bees to regularly break cluster. I guess this combination may well see my hives require more in the way of winter stores than either

No... you should focus on your management within your local  conditions.
This brand of crap -- "The US covers 11 of the 13 climate zones.." -- is forum drum
beating, ignore it.

Checkmark this... you are in year 1 (one).... you got 20 more to sort this stuff, and bees
will still bee there.

Cheers.


Bill

[220]

... more to do with flora than temps.

True but the flora available is a direct result of the climate and temp

Luck and Location.. end of.

I wouldn't say luck but location 100%, in the past we have had migratory beekeeper place hives over summer/early autumn when most lots the country has been in a dearth. Not massive flows but enough to make a bit of honey and build stores for winter when all their other alternatives were to feed.

And the rest of us Aussies have extreme Wet and extreme Dry...compared to ACT.
Really, it is very small pockets at high altitudes in the most southerly Aussie
climes that can even mimic a Panhandle(USA) historical weather chart.
In short.. bees are do not know where they are, geographicly, Man does.
And bees cannot post to the iNetz. Period

What do you class a high altitude? Im at 800m not sure what panhandle you are referring to but compared to somewhere like Oklahoma city my average max temp is 2f cooler and average low 13f cooler.

No... you should focus on your management within your local  conditions.

100%,
probably even more critical with my location given the climate, cold wet winter with a dearth seems to be the exception for Aus.

Checkmark this... you are in year 1 (one).... you got 20 more to sort this stuff, and bees
will still bee there.

Are you sure 20 years will be enough,  lol

[eltalia]

... this one got away on me 220, apols for the time between ;-)

Yep, SA can get wet winters, much to the haymakers chagrin, but even in the Far North winters are
dry, usually. And yes, is usually the time the bush bursts into major flows. A "stay at home" BK these
days I look but do not leap.
The "Panhandle" reference is likely a poor choice, you'd have to ask someone local but anywhere
severe frost and/or above 3,000 feet should have BKs packing down colonies into single deeps for
winter.
Beats me why this setup (attached) seems to be largely adopted as it does not lend itself to allowing
bees to do what they do in setting a whole brood cluster... way too much open space and timber
as hurdles, in my assessment.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=50375.0;attach=2340

A quiet word in yer lug..?.. resist allowing us ol'furtz to set some magical mirage of knowledge
in your headspace. Sure it takes time to proof out some basics as being the only route that
works - like try as one might no amount of manipulation will stop bees going "drone mode", all that
can be done is managing numbers and bee happy with that - yet even in a backyard the
fundamentals could be driven home inside of a year with some book reading and observation.
That done, moving forward into managing crisis points could be as short as a couple of years
_IF_ one does not create the crisis... as I read elsewhere many entrants do do.
Experience really boils down to what a BK does with apiaries, do no more than run a dozen or so
colonies on a vacant lot and -  after 20years - no more "experience" is gained beyond the first
five years. Yet take on tasks as migratory pollination or honey production, and throw in many
colony rebuilds from feral bees captured and it gets a little exciting, at times.

As Joe Public is largely in awe - or fright - of the honeybee it is very easy for some to slip into some
magical social status among peers. I have found this rampant amongst our bee clubs, together with
some rudimentry "one world order" in poo-poohing alternatives as Trigona, as an option, and more
recently bringing the topic of topbar hives into discussion.
I quickly worked out the attitude came from these 'gurus' not owning any experience with such things
and so deflected enquiry.
I could list many such examples, but just one was "the combs in topbar fall apart, don't waste your
time". Now early days as it is - I am learning something totally new in all my experience - I am
astounded by the takeup rate of comb build in the few variations of of TBH frame design I have used.
Six months ago this grey haired ol' furt would have looked at a Kenyan TBH to mutter...."hippy hive"...
..... not today!
THAT is "experience"  ;-)


Cheerio....

Bill

[220]

A little overcast but no wind and got to 14c (57f) so I decided to get into my hives today seeing the forecast for the next week is max 8-9c  (46-48f). A few patches of daffodils and a few fruit trees starting to bloom in the last few days and the bees have started bringing in nectar.

I went into winter with 5 colonies in 5 different set ups.
8 frame double deep top box was nearly all honey, this still had about 2 frames of capped honey left the bottom box has been cleaned out and brood in the top box.
8 frame deep with a ideal box of honey, no capped honey left at all, brood in the bottom box.
5 frame nuc that I insulated with foam. Still has some capped honey.
5 frame double deep, top box was almost all honey and insulated with foam. A vey small amount of honey left, bottom box cleaned out and brood in the top box.
5 frame double deep not insulated, I did a late combine so a bit hard to do a direct comparison with the insulated 5x5 but this hive starved mid July.

Gives me a better idea of what I need to leave them with next winter.
All hives went into winter with a reduced bottom entrances and a 20x10mm top opening, The single nuc was the only one that elected top propolis it closed.

Edit: Didn't notice any drone brood, given the weather I didn't want to shake bees off frames and only had a quick look at each frame. I did spot one lone drone, I wasn't looking for queens but did spot one.