Adding second super

[Nock]

I?ll be adding my first super this week. I?ve read several different opinions on this. What does everyone here like to do put it above or below?  How many frames of brood do you like to put in new box?  When you move brood do you choose frame with or without the Queen or does it matter. Thanks

[saltybluegrass]

I love you -
We are new and our questions help out each other?s progress.
I?m going to make a statement that puts the vets to the test.
Nuck- make sure you?re lower box is 70-80 percent drawn before adding.

Ps- my stupid videos and questions allow other newbees to gain knowledge where they may be too shy to ask. I?ve always put myself (out) there
I ain?t skeered

[TheHoneyPump]

I?ll be adding my first super this week. I?ve read several different opinions on this. What does everyone here like to do put it above or below?  How many frames of brood do you like to put in new box?  When you move brood do you choose frame with or without the Queen or does it matter. Thanks

Is the hive setup as a single brood box or double brood box system?  What is the current status, the current configuration.  When you say adding super, are you meaning honey super or another brood box?  Asking those questions because "super" and "brood" do not go together in same sentences of questions. Hence the response shall bee very different.

What exactly do you have and what exactly are you trying or wanting to do?

[Nock]

I?ll be adding my first super this week. I?ve read several different opinions on this. What does everyone here like to do put it above or below?  How many frames of brood do you like to put in new box?  When you move brood do you choose frame with or without the Queen or does it matter. Thanks

Is the hive setup as a single brood box or double brood box system?  What is the current status, the current configuration.  When you say adding super, are you meaning honey super or another brood box?  Asking those questions because "super" and "brood" do not go together in same sentences of questions. Hence the response shall bee very different.

What exactly do you have and what exactly are you trying or wanting to do?

Currently have just one brood box. 10 frame deep. This was a nuc installed on27 of April. I was in this hive on Friday. They were starting on 7 th frame. I?m wanting to add another brood box.

[TheHoneyPump]

Alright, perfect. Thanks for clarifying.  There are two considerations for adding brood box and then the honey box(es).  First is space for bees and queen.  Second is space for nectar / honey.

From your last inspection:  How much brood did you see? As in number of brood patches as large an area of your hand with spread fingers.  Not just capped.  Brood all stages.  Or saying another way, how many hands of brood are in there?  ;).  When inspecting a hive, the number seams of bees you see tells you what the hive is today. The number of hands of brood tells you what the hive is going to be in 2 weeks.  One "hand patch of brood" is one full frame of walking bees in the near future. You add space to a hive not for the bees in the box today but for what will be in the box in 2 weeks based on the amount of brood seen.

Based on your description, you currently have 6 frames of bees working in a 10 frame box. There are 4 frames of space free. You would have to see more than 4 solid spread hand sized patches of brood before considering to add another box.  What does your bees and brood count tell you about the space needed?

The second consideration of nectar / honey depends entirely on what is going on in your area for forage.  Is there a strong flow, a dearth, or just trickling of forage coming in.  Add space if there is a strong flow, the box is fully drawn, and you see they are backfilling the brood nest with nectar.  Add nothing if it is trickling or nothing.

Hope that helps!

[incognito]

thehoneypump,
My hive 2 is a comb building machine, sucking up 1:1 syrup at a gallon per week during a heavy flow and almost building out an 8 frame deep in three weeks. (Hive 1 not so much.)

Starting new and having no spare comb on hand, should I add a box just to let them keep building comb regardless of the other factors you mentioned?
To the other newbees,

Thanks. Keep posting and sharing videos. No need to duplicate topics.

[Nock]

Alright, perfect. Thanks for clarifying.  There are two considerations for adding brood box and then the honey box(es).  First is space for bees and queen.  Second is space for nectar / honey.

From your last inspection:  How much brood did you see? As in number of brood patches as large an area of your hand with spread fingers.  Not just capped.  Brood all stages.  Or saying another way, how many hands of brood are in there?  ;).  When inspecting a hive, the number seams of bees you see tells you what the hive is today. The number of hands of brood tells you what the hive is going to be in 2 weeks.  One "hand patch of brood" is one full frame of walking bees in the near future. You add space to a hive not for the bees in the box today but for what will be in the box in 2 weeks based on the amount of brood seen.

Based on your description, you currently have 6 frames of bees working in a 10 frame box. There are 4 frames of space free. You would have to see more than 4 solid spread hand sized patches of brood before considering to add another box.  What does your bees and brood count tell you about the space needed?

The second consideration of nectar / honey depends entirely on what is going on in your area for forage.  Is there a strong flow, a dearth, or just trickling of forage coming in.  Add space if there is a strong flow, the box is fully drawn, and you see they are backfilling the brood nest with nectar.  Add nothing if it is trickling or nothing.

Hope that helps!

There was easily 5-6 maybe more. I was amazed at the weight of frames. All different stages. Seemed like double the amount of bees from the last inspection a week earlier. So sounds like I will need to add this week. So when I do how many frames of brood do I move to new box? 

[saltybluegrass]

So..... adding a brood box versus a honey super is determined by the amount of brood?

[TheHoneyPump]

So..... adding a brood box versus a honey super is determined by the amount of brood?

Correct

[TheHoneyPump]

**********
There was easily 5-6 maybe more. I was amazed at the weight of frames. All different stages. Seemed like double the amount of bees from the last inspection a week earlier. So sounds like I will need to add this week. So when I do how many frames of brood do I move to new box?
***********


Sounds like you have a bit of time, but not a lot of time.  Add the 2nd brood box at your convenience over the next 7 to 10 days.

As for adding the box and moving brood.  If it is new equipment (foundation) what I advise is this.  Put the new box down on a plywood next to the hive. This is so you do not loose young bees or the queen if they run off the bottom of frames into the grass.  Take the centre 4 new frames out of the second box and place next to the hive.  Transfer the centre 4 frames of the hive nest from the bottom box into that open space in the 2nd box.  Try to pickup and transfer as a block of frames.  Do not separate them if can void it and especially do not change their order. Next go back to the bottom box.  Push the remaining frames tight together and center them in the box. Install the new frames that were removed from the second into the sides spaces of the bottom box. 2 each side. Put the second box on.  Then, inspect that board on the ground for the queen or/and clumps of baby bees.  Sweep them onto the frames of the top box.  Close up the hive and walk away. 

Result is a 4 over 6 nest centred in the boxes.  They will reorganize themselves and expand.   Keep some light feed on to support drawing out the new foundation ... until a heavy flow comes then stop and remove all feeding.

[Nock]

Do you worry if Queen is on those four frames?  What about if foundationless same thing?

[TheHoneyPump]

Do you worry if Queen is on those four frames?  What about if foundationless same thing?

Nope.  Do not care where the queen is.
Yup, same thing if foundation less.

Foundation less, I leave for comments by the experts at using those. Though I would suggest it requires more frequent weekly frame manipulations to place new frames between drawn frames to prevent wild cross combs and bridging.  Do not open the brood nest to do so.  The integrity of the nest is upmost importance priority over drawing out frames.

[incognito]

Result is a 4 over 6 nest centred in the boxes.  Keep some light feed on to support drawing out the new foundation ... until a heavy flow comes then stop and remove all feeding.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

In 8 frame equipment is the desired brood result 4 over 4 or 3 over 5? I'm guessing 4 over 4 in case temperature drops.

Is it the center of the brood you move from the existing box to the center of the new box if the brood frames are skewed to one side (the side where the queen was placed on installation)?

What is the downside to feeding light syrup in a heavy flow to encourage comb building, storing syrup instead of nectar?

[Nock]

So your saying don?t open the bottom brood nest?

[TheHoneyPump]

Let us not over complicate this.  When a nest is expanding the amount it will expand is determined by the amount of brood there is. 
One full frame of new space is needed per hand sized patch of brood seen.  A frame that has a hand sized brood patch on both sides equals two frames of new space needed. A frame that has hand sized brood patch on only one side is one new frame of space needed. 
When adding a second box of all new foundation or foundationless frames the method to maintain momentum and not set them back is to move the heart of the nest, the centre 4 frames, as a block, up to the centre of the second box. Do not disturb the nest integrity of those frames. Do not separate the frames. Keep them together.  Push the other drawn frames in the bottom box together.  This re-establishes a useable nest space in the centre of the bottom box, below what has just been moved up into the new box. The queen will finish filling out those 4 frames that were moved up. When out of space to work she will naturally move down into the bottom box. The bees will draw comb and fill the outer frames in both boxes with nectar/honey, starting in the top box which pushes the queen down.

If you have frames of drawn comb in the second box, then it is not necessary nor advised to move any brood.  Just have the drawn comb in the centre of the box and put it on as is. 

No, do not ever "open" the brood nest frames to put foundation/foundationless frames into it.  Draw out new frames on the outer edges, the sides, of the nest in positions 2 and 8 of a 10 frame box.

[TheHoneyPump]

Result is a 4 over 6 nest centred in the boxes.  Keep some light feed on to support drawing out the new foundation ... until a heavy flow comes then stop and remove all feeding.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

In 8 frame equipment is the desired brood result 4 over 4 or 3 over 5? I'm guessing 4 over 4 in case temperature drops.

**** the desired is whatever the bees end up doing with it.  What has been described is just the initial setup when the new box is added.  As said, the bees will reorganize it the way they want it, starting the moment you put the covers back on.


Is it the center of the brood you move from the existing box to the center of the new box if the brood frames are skewed to one side (the side where the queen was placed on installation)?

**** yes, thanks for asking.  The centre of the brood nest.  If it is skewed to one side, take the skew from the offset side but place it centred in the top.


What is the downside to feeding light syrup in a heavy flow to encourage comb building, storing syrup instead of nectar?

**** The only downside is you will be getting syrup mixed in with the nectar/honey.  Not a problem if you are not going to be harvesting any of it.  Beware though that once the bottom boxes are drawn and ultimately put a honey super on, the bees will be moving some of what is in the bottom boxes up into the super. In other words, syrup may end up in your honey eventually.  But I suppose that is no worse than any of the other "adultered" honey out there on the grocer shelves.

[Nock]

Gotcha now. Thanks HP.

[incognito]

What is the downside to feeding light syrup in a heavy flow to encourage comb building, storing syrup instead of nectar?

**** The only downside is you will be getting syrup mixed in with the nectar/honey.  Not a problem if you are not going to be harvesting any of it.  Beware though that once the bottom boxes are drawn and ultimately put a honey super on, the bees will be moving some of what is in the bottom boxes up into the super. In other words, syrup may end up in your honey eventually.  But I suppose that is no worse than any of the other "adultered" honey out there on the grocer shelves.

I am thinking that is an acceptable trade off for a first year suburban beek with no access to spare drawn comb. Hopefully the syrup is getting mostly into the comb and a lesser portion getting into the stores.

It also seems like the same downside as fall feeding, assuming you left some honey supers on - or even with honey stored in the brood boxes. We can only partially control the inputs, and have no control over what the bees do with them. The only pure alternative is to not feed at all, but then we are still subject to the ladies robbing someone else's syrup or getting soda from the dumpster.

[TheHoneyPump]

Yup, if you are focused on getting the hive established, getting lots of comb drawn, then feed away!  What will happen is they will draw feed in evenings and times of poor weather.  They will not draw much, if any, when there is a strong flow on.  The idea of the feed is it is there when they need it without having to go get it.
Pour it to 'em!