Hive Keeps Swarming

[The15thMember]

My one hive came off my first winter very strong.  They started making queen cups at the end of March and I split the hive on April 16th.  I moved the old queen to a new hive, and I put half the stores and brood with her.  The hive with the old queen in it is doing great, acting normal.  The hive that was left with no queen swarmed on April 24th.  So I did my first swarm capture.  It went very well, and I am planning on going into that swarm's hive today to see if there was a queen with them or not.  Based on my calculation of the queen cells development, they shouldn't have hatched yet, but it's possible I missed one that was already capped.  Then just about an hour ago, that supposedly queenless hive swarmed again, and this time there was a queen with them.  I saw her go into the box with them, and she looked mated to my eye.  The hive had been left with a lot of queen cells, and I guess the hive was still too crowded, so I'm assuming this is why they swarmed twice.  The question is what do I do now?  I really don't want this hive to swarm again.  I'm already having to rig a bottom board for today's swarm because I'm out of equipment.  What should I do to try and prevent this hive from swarming again?

[CoolBees]

There are many different approaches. I'd be order more equipment.

[cao]

If they had already started queen cells before you split them originally then they could have easily produced a queen by the 24th.  Apparently they still feel they are overcrowded, hence the second swarm.  If you don't want them to swarm the only thing I can think of is making sure they have enough room.  That is no guarantee.  Once they are in swarm mode, it's hard to change their mind.

[The15thMember]

There are many different approaches. I'd be order more equipment.

Yeah, clearly.  I had enough equipment for the split and then extra for another hive in case of emergency, but I don't have enough for 2 emergencies.   

If they had already started queen cells before you split them originally then they could have easily produced a queen by the 24th.  Apparently they still feel they are overcrowded, hence the second swarm.  If you don't want them to swarm the only thing I can think of is making sure they have enough room.  That is no guarantee.  Once they are in swarm mode, it's hard to change their mind.

I went in the swarmy hive and added on another box between the brood box and the honey super, so hopefully that will help with them feeling crowded.

I also found 4 queens in the hive!  The first swarm had no queen, so I gave one to them.  What do I do about the rest?  Should I just leave them all in there to fight it out?  Or will all the queens make them keep swarming?  There are also more queen cells still capped.  Should I pinch them?   

[BeeMaster2]

That depends on if you found 4 queens or 4 queen cells. 4 queens probably means the bees were holding them in their cells and during your inspection you disturbed the bees enough that they stopped sealing the queens as they cut themselves out. I would go back in and see if they are all alive. If so they are keeping the queens apart and planning on swarming again. Remove 3 and mark the 4th and return her to the hive. Put the others in a Nuc with some bees to feed them. If nothing else, put them in a small jar of alcohol and use them for swarm traps.
If they are queen cells, go in and remove all but one, have queen cages ready, they will hatch out as soon as you handle them. They will probably look like mature queens because they have been developing during their confinement.
Jim Altmiller

[The15thMember]

That depends on if you found 4 queens or 4 queen cells. 4 queens probably means the bees were holding them in their cells and during your inspection you disturbed the bees enough that they stopped sealing the queens as they cut themselves out. I would go back in and see if they are all alive. If so they are keeping the queens apart and planning on swarming again. Remove 3 and mark the 4th and return her to the hive. Put the others in a Nuc with some bees to feed them. If nothing else, put them in a small jar of alcohol and use them for swarm traps.
If they are queen cells, go in and remove all but one, have queen cages ready, they will hatch out as soon as you handle them. They will probably look like mature queens because they have been developing during their confinement.
Jim Altmiller

I found 4 queens, as well as several still capped queen cells.  Should I remove all the queen cells that are still capped?  Is there anything I can do with queen cells other than just throw them out?  Should I go in the hive tomorrow and check if all the queens are still alive, or should I wait until Monday to give the queens a chance to fight it out?   

[BeeMaster2]

I would go in tomorrow and remove all but one. They are only keeping all of those queens in order to swarm.
Put them in separate cages and put them in a box with nectar and pollen. Call your beekeeper friends and see if they need queens. They are worth at least $5. a piece.
Jim Altmiller

[The15thMember]

I would go in tomorrow and remove all but one. They are only keeping all of those queens in order to swarm.
Put them in separate cages and put them in a box with nectar and pollen. Call your beekeeper friends and see if they need queens. They are worth at least $5. a piece.
Jim Altmiller

All right, thanks for the advice, Jim. 

[BeeMaster2]

Put a handful of bees in there with the queens.
Jim Altmiller

[Oldbeavo]

once you have determined that there is a queen in the swarming hive, put a piece of queen excluder over the entrance or move the queen and brood up one box and put a QX between the boxes with the queen in the top box.
May kill a few drones that can't get out but will stop the swarming for now.

[The15thMember]

once you have determined that there is a queen in the swarming hive, put a piece of queen excluder over the entrance or move the queen and brood up one box and put a QX between the boxes with the queen in the top box.
May kill a few drones that can't get out but will stop the swarming for now.

I thought about doing something like that, but this hive is absolutely loaded with drones.  I mean like half the bees in there or more are drones. 

Remove 3 [queens] and mark the 4th and return her to the hive. 

I would like to mark the queen I pick today.  I have never marked a queen before, and I have no equipment (marking cage, queen muff, etc.) to assist me in doing so.  What's the best way to mark using only my hands?  Since this queen is probably a virgin, I'd assume I shouldn't hold her by her wings, right?  Also, what paint/pen can I use to mark that I'd have around the house, as I won't have the opportunity to get anywhere to get a marking pen?     

Edit: My sister found some model car paint in her craft supplies, and I also have some touch up car paint for a real car, just so you know what I?ve got access to.

[The15thMember]

Okay, so here's what I did.  My sister made a makeshift queen marking cage using 2 cups, one on top of the other; she copied it off a guy on YouTube.  We used silver Testors model paint, since that was the most visible color we had, and we tested the marking cage on a couple of drones and on a queen that we'd pulled from the hive yesterday who had a damaged wing and couldn't fly.  Then we went into the hive to try and find the two queens we left in there yesterday and any more that may have hatched.  We went through the whole hive, checked each frame, and removed all the queen cells that were still capped.  We found only one queen in the hive, and put her in a jar so we didn't lose her again.  My sister and I were talking about whether or not we could have missed a queen somewhere in the hive, and I peeked around the front of the hive to see if there were any dead queens on the ground, thinking maybe they had in fact fought it out overnight, and there was a live queen sitting on the landing board!  I don't know if she was in the bottom box and crawled out due to the commotion from the inspection, or maybe she was coming back from a mating flight.  On the off chance she was mated we picked her to be the winner, and we caught her and marked her, and put her in the hive.  We removed the other queen we had found earlier.  This means we found both the queens we'd left in there yesterday.  So I came back inside and watched the end of the NASCAR race, and then I went back outside to clean up.  I went back up to the hives and the bees had something balled on the landing board.  So I brushed the workers aside and inside the ball is another queen!  She's not the one we marked, and the bees seemed to be attacking her.  I got her in a cage and she seemed like she was pretty far gone, so I stuck her in the freezer.  Does the aggressive behavior toward this queen indicate that they've accepted the marked queen?                 

[Nock]

What are your plans for theone you put in freezer?  Bait?  Sorry I?m no help with your question but I?m curious to hear what others think.

[The15thMember]

What are your plans for theone you put in freezer?  Bait?  Sorry I?m no help with your question but I?m curious to hear what others think.

I may use her for a bait hive in the future. It was really just a convenient and humane way to kill her without damaging her.

[TheHoneyPump]

Interesting read.  Quite the saga.  Fun times!

Attempt at summarizing the current status. Please correct or clarify anything: 
- the original queen is in a new separate hive.  All is well over there with her and her bees
- the original hive, had many queens and queen cells. Half the population in it are drones. At this time there is now only one silver marked queen in there. It is unknown if she is mated.
- one queen is in a jar, alive.  It is unknown if she is mated
- one queen is in the deep freeze.

Correct?   
 

[BeeMaster2]

Member,
The queen being balled on the landing is a good sign. It should mean that they are done swarming. It does not mean that the marked queen is the one that survived. There may have been another one that you did not find that won the hive. Do not inspect this hive for another 2 weeks. The new queen needs to mate and get a good brood pattern developed before you do your next inspection. If you do not wait, they may blame the new queen for the constant disruption and ball her.
Jim Altmiller

[Oldbeavo]

The queen being balled may also be a queen that has returned to the wrong hive, got disorientated?
Only another option.
if it is an option there is a hive somewhere that is now missing a queen.

[The15thMember]

Interesting read.  Quite the saga.  Fun times!

No doubt about it! 

Attempt at summarizing the current status. Please correct or clarify anything: 
- the original queen is in a new separate hive.  All is well over there with her and her bees
- the original hive, had many queens and queen cells. Half the population in it are drones. At this time there is now only one silver marked queen in there. It is unknown if she is mated.
- one queen is in a jar, alive.  It is unknown if she is mated
- one queen is in the deep freeze.

Correct?   
 

From what I told you, yes that is correct. The only thing is that the queen that we tested the marking cage on, the one with the damaged wing, is in the freezer too. So your list is correct, except there are 2 queens in the freezer. I?ll give you full credit for your answer though, since I didn?t mention that previously. 

Member,
The queen being balled on the landing is a good sign. It should mean that they are done swarming. It does not mean that the marked queen is the one that survived. There may have been another one that you did not find that won the hive. Do not inspect this hive for another 2 weeks. The new queen needs to mate and get a good brood pattern developed before you do your next inspection. If you do not wait, they may blame the new queen for the constant disruption and ball her.
Jim Altmiller

Great, this means I was thinking correctly, since you basically just restated what I was thinking in my own head.

The queen being balled may also be a queen that has returned to the wrong hive, got disorientated?
Only another option.
if it is an option there is a hive somewhere that is now missing a queen.

What?s the likelihood of this happening?  The queen they were balling did look very similar to the queen I put with the queenless swarm. 

[The15thMember]

I went up to the hives about a half an hour ago, and this swarmy hive had tons of drones entering the hive.  The worker traffic was normal, although there were a lot of bees sitting on the robbing screen, but there was just loads of drones coming in the hive.  Any idea what that's about?  Could it be a queen coming back from a mating flight? 

Here's some pictures of the entrance. 
   

[TheHoneyPump]

The drones smell the virgin(s).  They will frequent that hive and may even make it home until the VQ(s) are mated.  I cannot say if they try to coax the VQ(s) out to play or not.  It is common though for a hive that is 'normal' to suddenly have a mass of drones show up and loiter.  That usually an indication of ripe queen cells or VQ(s) nearing their time to play.

For your hive, it means to me that you do not have a laying queen yet.

[The15thMember]

The drones smell the virgin(s).  They will frequent that hive and may even make it home until the VQ(s) are mated.  I cannot say if they try to coax the VQ(s) out to play or not.  It is common though for a hive that is 'normal' to suddenly have a mass of drones show up and loiter.  That usually an indication of ripe queen cells or VQ(s) nearing their time to play.

For your hive, it means to me that you do not have a laying queen yet.

All right, good to know.  So it could be an indication that she's getting close to a mating flight.  Thanks, HP. 

[The15thMember]

It's been two weeks, so I went into the swarmy hive today.  Not looking good in there.  I saw no queen and no eggs, and the hive is like 80% drones.  Unless she was hanging around in the slatted rack, I'm almost certain that the marked queen is not in there (unless the workers cleaned off the paint.)  I was really scanning for the marked queen, and with all the drones, it's possible I missed an unmarked queen.  There is still a lot of drone activity around this hive.  At about 3:00 every day there is an abnormal amount of drones entering the hive, like in the pictures I posted.  Is this an indication that there is a virgin queen in there?  Why hasn't she mated yet?  Should I give them a frame of eggs and see if they make a queen?  What do you guys think my next step should be with this hive?   

[Ben Framed]

Member, Last fall I purchased some marked queens. The marked paint from the bee supplier did not stay on very well, looked like finger nail polish? I realized that this would soon be all off and  I really wanted these queens to stayed marked for a couple reasons. To make a long story short, I bought a red painters pen , from all places, Walmart!  I also bought a marking cage because I was not confident enough to handle the queens. I didn't want to damage them as no experience in handling queens. I am happy to tell you that the red dots are still just as good now as the day that  I marked them. I have a easy source of marking paint that I can rely on cheap and convenient. They were $2.89 in the hobby or craft department, made by the Elmer company.
PS Yesterday, I marked 6 queens Neon Lime Green same type paint pen, and let me tell you they stick out! Very easy to see. And, I have retired the marking cage. I took the plunge and handled them by hand. So glad I did. Good luck,
Phillip

[The15thMember]

Member, Last fall I purchased some marked queens. The marked paint from the bee supplier did not stay on very well, looked like finger nail polish? I realized that this would soon be all off and  I really wanted these queens to stayed marked for a couple reasons. To make a long story short, I bought a red painters pen , from all places, Walmart!  I also bought a marking cage because I was not confident enough to handle the queens. I didn't want to damage them as no experience in handling queens. I am happy to tell you that the red dots are still just as good now as the day that  I marked them. I have a easy source of marking paint that I can rely on cheap and convenient. They were $2.89 in the hobby or craft department, made by the Elmer company.
PS Yesterday, I marked 6 queens Neon Lime Green same type paint pen, and let me tell you they stick out! Very easy to see. And, I have retired the marking cage. I took the plunge and handled them by hand. So glad I did. Good luck,
Phillip

I used silver Testors model paint, and most people seem to have good success with that, but it was my first time marking, so I could have done something wrong (didn't wait long enough for it to dry, too much/too little, etc.).  I think what I may do, pending any more answers of course, is I'll wait until sometime next week and then go back in again and see if I can find a queen in there.  If not, I'll give them a frame of eggs and see what happens.  My biggest concern is that there are so many drones in the hive, and I'm just not sure why.  There was not an excess of drone brood in the hive, and there are no laying workers (at least not yet).  My guess would be that the swarms didn't take many drones and so they were just all left behind in this hive, but I have no idea if that's a correct assumption.  This hive is showing more mites in sugar rolls than other hives as well, but that may be from all the drones.   

[Ben Framed]

Yes the paint that you used is suppose to be good for marking queens so I have read. Could be that you are right about not letting it dry completely? Just a guess. I am thinking drones are a good way for the mites to be spread around since they visit as they will and where they will. Wishing you the best .

[The15thMember]

I checked in this hive today.  I went through the bottom box, and it wasn't looking good, no eggs, population lower than last weekend.  Then I get up into the second box, and lo and behold, I find eggs and young larva and one frame over, a shiny new mated queen!  She's not the one that we marked so we must have missed her when she was a virgin, and the marked one must have either lost the fight or swarmed.  There are still a lot of drones in the hive, but there are definitely less than before, so, HoneyPump, you were right about the drone activity being a sign of a virgin in there.  Thanks to everyone for the help.           

[TheHoneyPump]

That is great news.  Congratulations!
Next steps ... if your other hive(s) can spare a frame or two of mature capped brood, it will be very helpful to boost this hive with capped-emerging brood. New larvae plus alot of drones is taxing on the bees that are left, trying to keep them all fed.
Also check the stores level (honey).  There will be a drain and strain with new brood from the new queen coming on along with a lot of drones.  If there are few actual bees they will not get much foraging done as they are looking after the brood and feeding drones. Consider giving honey frames from other hives or put some 1:1 syrup feed on them.  Just until you are happy that the nest has been re-established and population is growing again. 
For your consideration

Hope that helps!