Hive Keeps Swarming

[The15thMember]

My one hive came off my first winter very strong.  They started making queen cups at the end of March and I split the hive on April 16th.  I moved the old queen to a new hive, and I put half the stores and brood with her.  The hive with the old queen in it is doing great, acting normal.  The hive that was left with no queen swarmed on April 24th.  So I did my first swarm capture.  It went very well, and I am planning on going into that swarm's hive today to see if there was a queen with them or not.  Based on my calculation of the queen cells development, they shouldn't have hatched yet, but it's possible I missed one that was already capped.  Then just about an hour ago, that supposedly queenless hive swarmed again, and this time there was a queen with them.  I saw her go into the box with them, and she looked mated to my eye.  The hive had been left with a lot of queen cells, and I guess the hive was still too crowded, so I'm assuming this is why they swarmed twice.  The question is what do I do now?  I really don't want this hive to swarm again.  I'm already having to rig a bottom board for today's swarm because I'm out of equipment.  What should I do to try and prevent this hive from swarming again?

[CoolBees]

There are many different approaches. I'd be order more equipment.

[cao]

If they had already started queen cells before you split them originally then they could have easily produced a queen by the 24th.  Apparently they still feel they are overcrowded, hence the second swarm.  If you don't want them to swarm the only thing I can think of is making sure they have enough room.  That is no guarantee.  Once they are in swarm mode, it's hard to change their mind.

[The15thMember]

There are many different approaches. I'd be order more equipment.

Yeah, clearly.  I had enough equipment for the split and then extra for another hive in case of emergency, but I don't have enough for 2 emergencies.   

If they had already started queen cells before you split them originally then they could have easily produced a queen by the 24th.  Apparently they still feel they are overcrowded, hence the second swarm.  If you don't want them to swarm the only thing I can think of is making sure they have enough room.  That is no guarantee.  Once they are in swarm mode, it's hard to change their mind.

I went in the swarmy hive and added on another box between the brood box and the honey super, so hopefully that will help with them feeling crowded.

I also found 4 queens in the hive!  The first swarm had no queen, so I gave one to them.  What do I do about the rest?  Should I just leave them all in there to fight it out?  Or will all the queens make them keep swarming?  There are also more queen cells still capped.  Should I pinch them?   

[BeeMaster2]

That depends on if you found 4 queens or 4 queen cells. 4 queens probably means the bees were holding them in their cells and during your inspection you disturbed the bees enough that they stopped sealing the queens as they cut themselves out. I would go back in and see if they are all alive. If so they are keeping the queens apart and planning on swarming again. Remove 3 and mark the 4th and return her to the hive. Put the others in a Nuc with some bees to feed them. If nothing else, put them in a small jar of alcohol and use them for swarm traps.
If they are queen cells, go in and remove all but one, have queen cages ready, they will hatch out as soon as you handle them. They will probably look like mature queens because they have been developing during their confinement.
Jim Altmiller

[The15thMember]

That depends on if you found 4 queens or 4 queen cells. 4 queens probably means the bees were holding them in their cells and during your inspection you disturbed the bees enough that they stopped sealing the queens as they cut themselves out. I would go back in and see if they are all alive. If so they are keeping the queens apart and planning on swarming again. Remove 3 and mark the 4th and return her to the hive. Put the others in a Nuc with some bees to feed them. If nothing else, put them in a small jar of alcohol and use them for swarm traps.
If they are queen cells, go in and remove all but one, have queen cages ready, they will hatch out as soon as you handle them. They will probably look like mature queens because they have been developing during their confinement.
Jim Altmiller

I found 4 queens, as well as several still capped queen cells.  Should I remove all the queen cells that are still capped?  Is there anything I can do with queen cells other than just throw them out?  Should I go in the hive tomorrow and check if all the queens are still alive, or should I wait until Monday to give the queens a chance to fight it out?   

[BeeMaster2]

I would go in tomorrow and remove all but one. They are only keeping all of those queens in order to swarm.
Put them in separate cages and put them in a box with nectar and pollen. Call your beekeeper friends and see if they need queens. They are worth at least $5. a piece.
Jim Altmiller

[The15thMember]

I would go in tomorrow and remove all but one. They are only keeping all of those queens in order to swarm.
Put them in separate cages and put them in a box with nectar and pollen. Call your beekeeper friends and see if they need queens. They are worth at least $5. a piece.
Jim Altmiller

All right, thanks for the advice, Jim. 

[BeeMaster2]

Put a handful of bees in there with the queens.
Jim Altmiller

[Oldbeavo]

once you have determined that there is a queen in the swarming hive, put a piece of queen excluder over the entrance or move the queen and brood up one box and put a QX between the boxes with the queen in the top box.
May kill a few drones that can't get out but will stop the swarming for now.

[The15thMember]

once you have determined that there is a queen in the swarming hive, put a piece of queen excluder over the entrance or move the queen and brood up one box and put a QX between the boxes with the queen in the top box.
May kill a few drones that can't get out but will stop the swarming for now.

I thought about doing something like that, but this hive is absolutely loaded with drones.  I mean like half the bees in there or more are drones. 

Remove 3 [queens] and mark the 4th and return her to the hive. 

I would like to mark the queen I pick today.  I have never marked a queen before, and I have no equipment (marking cage, queen muff, etc.) to assist me in doing so.  What's the best way to mark using only my hands?  Since this queen is probably a virgin, I'd assume I shouldn't hold her by her wings, right?  Also, what paint/pen can I use to mark that I'd have around the house, as I won't have the opportunity to get anywhere to get a marking pen?     

Edit: My sister found some model car paint in her craft supplies, and I also have some touch up car paint for a real car, just so you know what I?ve got access to.

[The15thMember]

Okay, so here's what I did.  My sister made a makeshift queen marking cage using 2 cups, one on top of the other; she copied it off a guy on YouTube.  We used silver Testors model paint, since that was the most visible color we had, and we tested the marking cage on a couple of drones and on a queen that we'd pulled from the hive yesterday who had a damaged wing and couldn't fly.  Then we went into the hive to try and find the two queens we left in there yesterday and any more that may have hatched.  We went through the whole hive, checked each frame, and removed all the queen cells that were still capped.  We found only one queen in the hive, and put her in a jar so we didn't lose her again.  My sister and I were talking about whether or not we could have missed a queen somewhere in the hive, and I peeked around the front of the hive to see if there were any dead queens on the ground, thinking maybe they had in fact fought it out overnight, and there was a live queen sitting on the landing board!  I don't know if she was in the bottom box and crawled out due to the commotion from the inspection, or maybe she was coming back from a mating flight.  On the off chance she was mated we picked her to be the winner, and we caught her and marked her, and put her in the hive.  We removed the other queen we had found earlier.  This means we found both the queens we'd left in there yesterday.  So I came back inside and watched the end of the NASCAR race, and then I went back outside to clean up.  I went back up to the hives and the bees had something balled on the landing board.  So I brushed the workers aside and inside the ball is another queen!  She's not the one we marked, and the bees seemed to be attacking her.  I got her in a cage and she seemed like she was pretty far gone, so I stuck her in the freezer.  Does the aggressive behavior toward this queen indicate that they've accepted the marked queen?                 

[Nock]

What are your plans for theone you put in freezer?  Bait?  Sorry I?m no help with your question but I?m curious to hear what others think.

[The15thMember]

What are your plans for theone you put in freezer?  Bait?  Sorry I?m no help with your question but I?m curious to hear what others think.

I may use her for a bait hive in the future. It was really just a convenient and humane way to kill her without damaging her.

[TheHoneyPump]

Interesting read.  Quite the saga.  Fun times!

Attempt at summarizing the current status. Please correct or clarify anything: 
- the original queen is in a new separate hive.  All is well over there with her and her bees
- the original hive, had many queens and queen cells. Half the population in it are drones. At this time there is now only one silver marked queen in there. It is unknown if she is mated.
- one queen is in a jar, alive.  It is unknown if she is mated
- one queen is in the deep freeze.

Correct?   
 

[BeeMaster2]

Member,
The queen being balled on the landing is a good sign. It should mean that they are done swarming. It does not mean that the marked queen is the one that survived. There may have been another one that you did not find that won the hive. Do not inspect this hive for another 2 weeks. The new queen needs to mate and get a good brood pattern developed before you do your next inspection. If you do not wait, they may blame the new queen for the constant disruption and ball her.
Jim Altmiller

[Oldbeavo]

The queen being balled may also be a queen that has returned to the wrong hive, got disorientated?
Only another option.
if it is an option there is a hive somewhere that is now missing a queen.

[The15thMember]

Interesting read.  Quite the saga.  Fun times!

No doubt about it! 

Attempt at summarizing the current status. Please correct or clarify anything: 
- the original queen is in a new separate hive.  All is well over there with her and her bees
- the original hive, had many queens and queen cells. Half the population in it are drones. At this time there is now only one silver marked queen in there. It is unknown if she is mated.
- one queen is in a jar, alive.  It is unknown if she is mated
- one queen is in the deep freeze.

Correct?   
 

From what I told you, yes that is correct. The only thing is that the queen that we tested the marking cage on, the one with the damaged wing, is in the freezer too. So your list is correct, except there are 2 queens in the freezer. I?ll give you full credit for your answer though, since I didn?t mention that previously. 

Member,
The queen being balled on the landing is a good sign. It should mean that they are done swarming. It does not mean that the marked queen is the one that survived. There may have been another one that you did not find that won the hive. Do not inspect this hive for another 2 weeks. The new queen needs to mate and get a good brood pattern developed before you do your next inspection. If you do not wait, they may blame the new queen for the constant disruption and ball her.
Jim Altmiller

Great, this means I was thinking correctly, since you basically just restated what I was thinking in my own head.

The queen being balled may also be a queen that has returned to the wrong hive, got disorientated?
Only another option.
if it is an option there is a hive somewhere that is now missing a queen.

What?s the likelihood of this happening?  The queen they were balling did look very similar to the queen I put with the queenless swarm. 

[The15thMember]

I went up to the hives about a half an hour ago, and this swarmy hive had tons of drones entering the hive.  The worker traffic was normal, although there were a lot of bees sitting on the robbing screen, but there was just loads of drones coming in the hive.  Any idea what that's about?  Could it be a queen coming back from a mating flight? 

Here's some pictures of the entrance. 
   

[TheHoneyPump]

The drones smell the virgin(s).  They will frequent that hive and may even make it home until the VQ(s) are mated.  I cannot say if they try to coax the VQ(s) out to play or not.  It is common though for a hive that is 'normal' to suddenly have a mass of drones show up and loiter.  That usually an indication of ripe queen cells or VQ(s) nearing their time to play.

For your hive, it means to me that you do not have a laying queen yet.