Bees from foundationless frames

[Bob Wilson]

I am pretty sure the first swarm I caught last year was from some unknown beekeeper on my side of town. The bees were larger and golden.
I have been seeding new empty frames into the brood area for a year now, and the bees have been building smaller and smaller cells each time. My hives are all beginning to produce these little bees in the photo below. They are substantially smaller than they were.

[TheHoneyPump]

Interesting.  So would folks view that a good thing or a bad thing?
I would think bigger tankers can haul back more per load. Bigger is better in my apiary.

[Acebird]

I would think bigger tankers can haul back more per load. Bigger is better in my apiary.

IDK smaller bees are faster and it is the trip to and fro that takes the time. Another thing is you can fit more in a hive if they are smaller.

[AR Beekeeper]

I read on the forums that smaller European Honey Bees fly faster than normal size bees, but I have never read a controlled study that showed that result.

Bob Wilson;  When the comb with the smaller cells were drawn, what was the nectar flow like and how strong was the adult population?  I have seen foundationless comb drawn by swarms when the nectar flow was poor that was small and irregular, but the same colony when fed and with more young adults drew standard 5.2/5.3 mm cells.

[The15thMember]

I know this can be a hot topic, but isn't this a case of the bees naturally drawing smaller cells than are stamped on the foundation?  Many believe the smaller cells are healthier for the bees and promote better varroa control.     

[AR Beekeeper]

Yes, many believe small cell has an effect on varroa.  However, the controlled studies done multiple times in various parts of the world have proven that small cells is not what it was reported to be.  My own experience with 20 colonies on 4.9 mm cells for 3 years proved to me that the claims were bogus.

[Ben Framed]

Yes, many believe small cell has an effect on varroa.  However, the controlled studies done multiple times in various parts of the world have proven that small cells is not what it was reported to be.  My own experience with 20 colonies on 4.9 mm cells for 3 years proved to me that the claims were bogus.

Thanks AR for the truth of the matter. Bogus means bogus. I viewed an advertisement for a provap that looks kind of like what HP has described for his use in managing mites. I wish I had kept the heading and posted it here.

[Ben Framed]

There was once high hopes for small cell to be the key to handling varroa, Mr HP uses a home built vaporizer that gets the job done. Here I will post a picture of a manufactured product that looks similar to what Mr HP described. Now whether it works the same I do not know. One thing that looks to be true, small cell is not the trick.

[Oldbeavo]

Hi Bob
As hives are not static, the swarm may have requeen and the new queen mated to drones that influence bee size.
Has the color of the bees changed? Which may indicate a change of genetics of the hive.
I am a fan of yellow Italian bees, just like them, but as hives continue with out us requeening the bees do become darker and seem to be smaller. I have not measured any bees and so whether it is an optical illusion that a black bee appears smaller than a golden bee.
The Caucasian breeders will have the answer to whether black bees are smaller.

[Leoj900]

I was just trying to research whether there has been any scientific study on larger celled bees producing more honey. I could not quickly come up with anything and so I am wondering if those of you who use larger cells would know of any research or just general observation even. I keep hearing how small cell (or natural cell) is not beneficial, but I want to know if there is any benefit to making the bees larger.

[Ben Framed]

Oldbeavo do you use some sort of foundation or are a foundation less beekeeper? 

[Ben Framed]

I was just trying to research whether there has been any scientific study on larger celled bees producing more honey. I could not quickly come up with anything and so I am wondering if those of you who use larger cells would know of any research or just general observation even. I keep hearing how small cell (or natural cell) is not beneficial, but I want to know if there is any benefit to making the bees larger.

I do not know about scientific research, But TheHoneyPump has a long history of bee experience.

Quoting HoneyPump:
I would think bigger tankers can haul back more per load. Bigger is better in my apiary. 

[Bob Wilson]

1. I know of no study about smaller bees and varroa mite. Beats me whether it helps or not.
2. I keep foundationless for two reasons. I wanted bees but didn't have the money for everything, such as foundation. And partly because I like the idea of bees making the size cell/bees they want. If they naturally make smaller bees, i would think there is a reason for that.
3. All four of the hives are making smaller bees with foundationless. This is year 2 for me, and there has been a lot of new comb built. I believe the original comb built by the first swarm has been shifted into the honey area, and empty frames added to the brood area, and smaller bees have been the result.
4. This small cell comb has all been built this spring during a good flow.
5. For certain there has been some requeening and swarming. The one feral swarm I caught had even smaller bees, so it is possible, but unlikely I feel that it is all due to genetics.
6. Letting the bees build smaller cell size may not be more  healthy, but surely it cannot be less healthier.
7. Four hives, and two springs is by no means an exhaustive, scientific study. I just find these small bees fascinating.

[AR Beekeeper]

If the comb was built in a good flow and the cells are smaller than 5.2mm the answer is that probably the colony genetics is dictating the cell size. 

There is nothing wrong with comb built on foundationless frames as long as it is worker sized cells, and the bees will construct the size cell they desire.  It is best for the colony to hold down the amount of drone cells to 4% because this is one tool to control the rate of varroa increase. 

Cell size has nothing to do with the health of the colony, but the age of the comb does.  Colonies will produce healthier brood on comb that is 3 to 4 years old.  Foundationless is far less expensive and easier to replace than frames with foundation, just cut it out and put back in between frames of brood and the bees go to work.

I think the job I hated most of all was wiring frames for wax foundations.  The problem I had was the bees would make excessive drone cells, and that would require having them redraw the comb.  Also, it took me forever to learn not to tip the frame until it had aged enough not to break.

[Oldbeavo]

Ben
We use plastic foundation for everything. ...ARBK, wirings frames and the cost of wax is why we use plastic
Bob
It is the chicken and the egg.
Are the smaller bees building small cells because that suits them or are they building small cells and so you get small bees.
I think that the genetics in your area is for smaller bees, that build small cells because it fits them.
It would be interesting to give one of your hives some standard foundation for a while and see what happens to bee size, though I think they would stay small.

[Bob Wilson]

beavo. Interesting idea. I may borrow a few foundation frames from a friend to try. Meanwhile, time will tell. I will revisit the conversation next year with more experience.

[paus]

I always thought that a larger cell size was the result of some keeper that had  a thought  and did not think, also my philosophy about every day living.  Larger cells hold more honey in a frame because there is less cell wall volume VS smaller cells equal more cell wall volume  therefore more  overall volume for honey in a frame ln larger cells.  Also since the area of  the cell wall in the  frame is less with larger cells, there is less area for the honey to stick to, so extraction is more efficient.  Resulting in more honey volume  per frame and more honey extracted percentage wise.

[BeeMaster2]

Most foundation, plastic and wax, is large cell. It was originally designed that way to make larger bees, which it does. According to Michael, when installIng foundation less frames the bees build a smaller cell bases on the large bodies. It takes removing Old comb and several generations to get the bee size down to their smallest size.
Jim Altmiller

[beesnweeds]

   I ran a few hives foundationless and enjoyed it. Every beekeeper should at least try a frame or 2 for the experience.  I never saw a difference in the size of the bees but did notice the difference in quantity of bees.  Plastic foundation has approximately 3500 cells per side and good queens fill em up with eggs.  I never really got that with the foundationless frames.  Plastic foundation hives turned out to be more productive and I ended up with many more brood frames that can be used to make splits/nucs.  Foundationless frames can be hit or miss as they can be a mix of drone and brood cells or just don't have as many cells for worker brood. 

  One thing I thought I should mention is that seeing hives with small bees may be a sign of poor nutrition or disease and have nothing to do with cell size.

[Ben Framed]

>. I ran a few hives foundationless and enjoyed it. Every beekeeper should at least try a frame or 2 for the experience.  I never saw a difference in the size of the bees but did notice the difference in quantity of bees.  Plastic foundation has approximately 3500 cells per side and good queens fill em up with eggs.  I never really got that with the foundationless frames.  Plastic foundation hives turned out to be more productive and I ended up with many more brood frames that can be used to make splits/nucs.  Foundationless frames can be hit or miss as they can be a mix of drone and brood cells or just don't have as many cells for worker brood. 


Good post.