Technology In Wind Turbines

[Ben Framed]

Does anyone here have experience with this, or checked into this type of, high wind / low wind, turbine technology? 


https://youtu.be/7tsaFPd03w4

[BeeMaster2]

This is really interesting. I would love to bee able to get the 3d print files and print a small version of it. I might bee able to design it just from their pictures. I will bee investigating this a little further. I would love to have a good wind turbine to fill in when there is no solar power coming in. One problem is that we don?t have a lot to f wind here normally.
I need something that works in low wind speeds. Normal propeller wind turbines don?t work well here. I did see a vertical turbine next to a large Jacksonville city road that was always spinning every time I went by it. I think it may have been running on traffic wind.
Jim Altmiller

[Ben Framed]

Jim I am glad that you are interested. There are many references when it comes to wind turbines. This reference however is unique in design and function. Known problems with wind turbines include, higher wind , almost no wind.  Bird kill has also been a 'big' problem with the larger wind turbines . Not so with this set up.  Please keep us updated on your findings.

Thanks,
Phillip

[beesnweeds]

Ive looked into similar wind turbines years ago.  The problems are its very expensive to store any energy it generates.  Building codes here require that it can't generate power during outages, you could kill a lineman.  That type of electrical switching is also expensive.  I would have to design and build some type of costly shelter that wouldn't affect performance for the Harmony turbine.  I would be out there this morning trying to chop ice and snow out of it without causing damage and hoping we get some wind today to help recoup the money invested.

[Ben Framed]

I have seen other types of wind generating turbines but not quite like this one, which generates in wind as little as 1 MPH.(according to the claims) Or a wind turbine that automatically adjusts the blades pitch thus controlling the (rpms') according to wind speed from 1 MPH to what ever, which saves the turbine from being destroyed in a high wind senecio. 

I do not know about electrical flow safety concerns which might be generated during power outages. I can say and ask the same for solar panels as we well know they are being used by many these days. Perhaps there is some type safety feature installed in each which restricts flow down line during an outage? In other words, how is it done with solar panels?

Either way, I can say this is the most unique wind turbine I have seen so far... Whether it works or is even any good, I do not know...

 

[BeeMaster2]

The turbine turns at very low speeds, 2 miles per hour but does not produce electricity until, I think, four or more mph. It does this with a variable air gap in the generator. Being variable is a big deal in generators. I think it is one of the patients that they have. If you are building a wind generator from scratch one of the things that you need to work out is getting the right air gap. Too little and the blades need high speeds to start up. If the air gap is larger then you don?t make as much power with strong winds. The air gap is the spacing between the stator and the rotor. With low wind, the air gap is wide enough that you don?t put a load on the blades and it starts to spin. Then as the wind increases, the blades are already spinning and you reduce the air gap and make a little power. In the older models the blades still aren?t able to start spinning at the same wind speed.
Another good thing about this design is it is very quiet. That is a big problem with the older models. They are very noisy. Another great thing is at really high speeds, the old models had to shut down or they would burn up , literally and destroy the whole turbine. Not only does it not have to shut down, it also keeps making max power.
Is anyone else thinking about investing in this company?
Jim Altmiller

[Ben Framed]

Thanks for reporting your findings Jim. I found and posted this topic because i view this technology as being unique and wished to share the video with you all for conversation as well as curiosity. . I do not intend to invest in one of these units until I am 'totally' convinced it exceeds my expectations.

[The15thMember]

That's really interesting! 

[Acebird]

The real problem is anything mechanized will be subject to break downs. I think the best way to store energy with a turbine is pump water up hill.

[Acebird]

Building codes here require that it can't generate power during outages, you could kill a lineman.

You can kill a lineman with any kind of power generating on the grid if you don't have the proper controls or switch gear.

[Michael Bush]

I remember some wind generators in the old Domebook II and Shelter books that were made of 50 gallon drums cut lengthwise in half then welded back together so they make a kind of a "S" from the top.  It made a unidirectional wind generator that didn't need to face a particular direction.  If you wanted to put some directional equipment on it, you could put a windbreak that turns to face the wind on the outside half of the device.

[Acebird]

You can also turn the barrel halves to decrease the cupping of the wind for high wind conditions.  Take it one step further and actuate the turning with an off centered weight.  For a DIYer I would take this approach.  You need space though.  I thought about doing it here on top of this water tower.
https://www.accessstorageutica.com/photos

[Kathyp]

as said above, storage is the main issue with all this stuff.  If you have no wind, or something happens to your sunlight (volcano), you have no power.  Nuke, coal, hydro, and gas are constant producers.  Wind and solar are not.  I have no problem switching to green whatever but the storage problem needs to be solved first along with the cost.  You can't say you care about poor people and poor countries if you are forcing them to choose between power and food...which no one will have without power.

[G3farms]

choose between power and food...which no one will have without power.

Why would we have no food with out power?

200 years ago we had no power but still had food. Unless you classify mules as power, well we did windmills and water wheels, and steam and ..............

lets go back 1000 years, well we still had wind mills

better go back about 200,000 years ago, well fire had been discovered and food was being cooked


I guess food and energy do go hand in hand.


Now back to the question of "no power no food", it does not take much power on the end of a hoe handle to raise a small garden for food.

[Michael Bush]

Anytime the government subsidizes something it becomes impractical.  Wind power was practical when it had to actually produce more than it cost.  When it doesn't have to, then it doesn't.  The current crop of wind generators being pushed cost more power to produce them than they will ever produce.  The old Jacobs generators actually paid off.

[Ben Framed]

The old Jacobs generators actually paid off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobs_Wind

[Michael Bush]

I've always been for wind generators.  But they are talking about 400 watts.  My teapot draws 3,000 watts...  My main interest would probably be to be able to get my furnace, my well or my refrigerator to run in a power outage.  Probably not at the same time, but if I could pump up the pressure tank on the water, or catch up on the heat, or catch up on the fridge I could live with that.  I'm not sure 400 watts would do that...

[Ben Framed]

Besides hydropower, is green energy really practical and efficient? 

[Michael Bush]

>Besides hydropower, is green energy really practical and efficient? 

One of the main problems is that they are designed by engineers.  Engineers look at the math and the theory and come up with whether something is "efficient" from the point of view of how much energy could have been extracted vs how much was.  This is meaningless.  What matters is how much it COSTS compared to how much it produces.  Back in the 70s when I was getting big into such things, I knew I guy who was doing it quite efficiently by that measurement (cost) and I was judging it based on theoretical efficiency.  For instance he was using a motor/alternator to take the DC current from the batteries and convert it to 120 AC.  I mentioned how inefficient that was, converting wind motion to electricity, storing it in batteries, using the battery power in a motor to turn it back into motion and then an alternator to convert it back into electricity. He shrugged his shoulders and said, "well, I never run out of electricity in the batteries and the motor/generator cost me $50 government surplus, so I think it's pretty efficient." I couldn't argue with that.

He bought old Jacobs generators from the Gas company that they had on the gas pipelines to keep them from rusting.   The gas company sold them for the price if scrap iron.  He bought them and put new bushings and brushes in them and they were like new.  Then he bought single cell lead acid batteries from the phone company for the price of scrap lead.  The phone company would replace them before they failed.  If they failed, he sold them for the price of scrap lead, which is what he paid for them.   

If you use old 55 gallon drums to build a Savonious wind generator, and you get used batteries that you buy for the price of scrap lead and you use junkyard alternators to make the electricity it would be quite efficient.

On the other hand if your concern is CO2 and you buy those huge windmills, the concrete for the foundation will give off more CO2 than the generator will save, let alone the smelting on the steel to build it.  It will never pay for itself.   Those are the extremes, of course, but it takes a different view to look only at cost/benefit instead of theory that does not include cost, in money, energy, and if it is an issue for you, CO2 output to make it.

[Kathyp]

Now back to the question of "no power no food", it does not take much power on the end of a hoe handle to raise a small garden for food.

That's true and if we want to go back to substance farming and hunting, some people will survive.  We will not have enough to feed the entire population of the world, so the population will reduce and there's your solution to all the bad stuff in the world...except that people also used to war over things like food and land...
+ one bad year and you are back to no food. 

Besides hydropower, is green energy really practical and efficient?

  Nuklear power is.  The problem of storing the waste is no bigger than the problem of disposing of solar panels or windmills.  It produces a steady flow of energy and is not dependent on weather or sunlight.  It is the most practical solution for the entire world and need not be as expensive as it is to get started.  A huge part of the cost is in the fight with environmentalists and non-safety related regulations. 

We might be the first society in the history of the world that is talking about going backward rather than forward. 

[Michael Bush]

>We might be the first society in the history of the world that is talking about going backward rather than forward. 

I don't think we "might be", I think we are.

[Ben Framed]

Thanks both Michale and Kathy. Adding to the point of storing energy in batteries; I watched a clip featuring folks in a third world country who was resourceful in that they rebuilt discarded car batteries. Actually remolding and replacing the essential lead plates. A bit of work but little money involved.

[Michael Bush]

> I watched a clip featuring folks in a third world country who was resourceful in that they rebuilt discarded car batteries. Actually remolding and replacing the essential lead plates. A bit of work but little money involved.

I watched either that one or a similar one.  Way more work and more risk than I want to take (all that acid... I've been burned on battery acid before).  But if I was desperate I might consider it.  The up side is you can probably repair a lot of the batteries out there and they are essentially free.  Even if you pay the cost of scrap lead you can sell them for the price of scrap lead when you are done...

[Ben Framed]

>We might be the first society in the history of the world that is talking about going backward rather than forward. 

I don't think we "might be", I think we are.

In the mean time other countries are moving forward in electrical production.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2022/11/15/china-maintains-plans-for-massive-additional-coal-expansion/amp/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/03/climate/japan-coal-fukushima.amp.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertbryce/2022/10/28/the-iron-law-of-electricity-strikes-again-germany-re-opens-five-lignite-fired-power-plants/amp/

https://amp.rfi.fr/en/france/20221129-france-reboots-coal-fired-power-plant-to-boost-winter-electricity-supplies

[Ben Framed]

For curiosity, does anyone know how many times car battery acid, (sulfuric acid), can be reused in a battery recycling or battery rebuilding situtation?

[Kathyp]

In the mean time other countries are moving forward in electrical production.

My sis told me that they are warming up some of their coal plants in England in case they need them.

[Michael Bush]

If the battery is completely dead the "acid" is basically water.  If the battery won't take a charge it will remain water.