Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => TOP BAR HIVES - WARRE HIVES - LONG HIVES => Topic started by: Better.to.Bee.than.not on May 18, 2014, 02:44:00 am

Title: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: Better.to.Bee.than.not on May 18, 2014, 02:44:00 am
Was reading another thread and seen the mention of it, so am curious. why would anyone want to go with a TBH, instead of for instance a horizontal langstroth? IE the typical dimensions of a langstroth, except instead of building hive box on top of hive boxe, instead build as a trough like a TBH does. One would have frames, which we should all agree supports the comb better, helps prevent  them attaching comb to the sides/etc. one would not have to lift full heavy chambers, so gains the benefit of a TBH, doesn't have to disturb a whole chamber doing inspections/etc,etc.

I imagine one could even build these at sort of a angle, also which I cannot help but think the bees would like personally.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: charlie b on May 18, 2014, 09:48:54 am
Here's my first proto type---took out viewing window, will lengthen the roof. It designed to hold 11 brood frames and 17 honey......
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152339795662454&set=pb.793507453.-2207520000.1400417199.&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152339795662454&set=pb.793507453.-2207520000.1400417199.&type=3&theater)
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: AR Beekeeper on May 18, 2014, 02:50:01 pm
The hive you are speaking of was built in the late 1800's by a Kentucky beekeeper names Adiar.  It became known as the Long-Idea hive.  This type hive was used by a commercial beekeeper named O.O. Poppleton in Florida up to the 1920's.  He had between 300 - 800 in use at various times.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: annette on May 18, 2014, 03:56:06 pm
I would purchase one immediately if I could find one for sale. Always thought it would be much better than the TBH which doesn't have a full frame to support the comb.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: Joe D on May 19, 2014, 02:28:36 am
Was going to make one this year, haven't got to it yet.  My TBH, the trough style, has frames that I made.  On mine the bees will attach comb part of the way down, but not all the way usually. 



Joe
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: Better.to.Bee.than.not on May 19, 2014, 09:24:43 am
That looks awesome charlie. totally new, or have you run it with bees yet? for me I think I would have to have a view window cover/insulator at the very least, and do you have individual caps on each of the frame is that what I am seeing in that picture?
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: Billy B on May 19, 2014, 02:38:03 pm
One of the other differences, typically, is that in the top bar hive, the bars are flush to one another, effectively closing off access to the space above.   This is unlike a Langstroth frame in which the side bars are wider than the top bars and so create a gap that allows bees to travel up and down.     

Having the bars flush in the topbar hive allows you to essentially keep the hive more ore less closed, except to the bar you are inspecting and the face of the next bar (though of course the bees can travel around the sides and bottom of the combs).   So if this aspect of the design is important to you, then you would want to create custom frames, or otherwise create a cover.    Some folks just use a cloth for this purpose and roll it up as they progress through an inspection.    Also of note here, is that a lot of top bar hives have a large cavity between the top of the bars and the roof.  The bees can't access the cavity because the bars are flush.    If using standard frames the bees would have access to the cavity and would start building away.   So, the roof design needs to be more similar to a standard Langstroth as well.

Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: HomeSteadDreamer on May 19, 2014, 04:03:58 pm
ditto what billy said.  I like not exposing the whole hive at once.   That being said.  I want to try a long lang as I think it would also work well.  I don't have too much trouble with bad comb but I like the frame Idea and being compatible with other langs even though I don't have bee friends to swap equipment with.  Eventually I'd like to make a Nuc or two to sell to help with the bee population management (keep the numbers down) and make a little money to offset expenses.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: charlie b on May 19, 2014, 07:50:37 pm
and do you have individual caps on each of the frame is that what I am seeing in that picture?


That is what you are seeing and will answer the questions on the other posts as well...I considered the TB design and made special covers for each frame...This way, it works just like a TB. No gap between frames when working the hive.....
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: annette on May 20, 2014, 12:59:43 am
Here's my first proto type---took out viewing window, will lengthen the roof. It designed to hold 11 brood frames and 17 honey......
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152339795662454&set=pb.793507453.-2207520000.1400417199.&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152339795662454&set=pb.793507453.-2207520000.1400417199.&type=3&theater)

That is very nice looking
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: charlie b on May 20, 2014, 06:41:06 am

[/quote]

That is very nice looking
[/quote]
Thank you.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: Better.to.Bee.than.not on May 20, 2014, 10:15:30 am
Brilliant. Now I sorta wanna give it a go also. I like the idea of the individual 'caps' for each frame too. or maybe a cap that covers 3-4 frames at the same time even. probably won't rush to build one this week, but it's a thought.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: marktrl on June 01, 2014, 06:49:11 pm
I've been using a couple of long hives for 3 years.
Some pics:

(http://s10.postimg.org/udkmvfp6t/SAM_1656.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/udkmvfp6t/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/bza3rgcw5/SAM_1657.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/bza3rgcw5/)

(http://s10.postimg.org/6p5505sn9/SAM_1658.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6p5505sn9/)

I made them 35" high (counter top height) which is easy on the back. The bees tend to swam easier, they have never used all the space from end to end. If I ever decide to make any more I would make it to use medium frames.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: Better.to.Bee.than.not on June 01, 2014, 07:46:49 pm
so what do you have it built to now to use deep frames? for my langstroth, my deeps are 9-5/8" my mediums are 6-5/8" and I also use super deeps with deep frames that are like 11-3/4", but I do not do that regularly I just decided to do it for kicks on a  few hives. I honestly have no complaints about it either really, ,but your chambers seem fairly deep to me, but what do you mean by, you would make them to use mediums?
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: buzzbee on June 01, 2014, 09:21:40 pm
The benefit to the top bars in poor countries were that they need very little material or skill to fabricate.
Michael Bush has used long hives and discusses them on his site.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm)
Check the different type of topbars too:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm)
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: marktrl on June 01, 2014, 11:46:05 pm
Better.to.Bee.than.not, I use standard deep frames. The chambers look deeper because there is a bottom frame the the screen sets on with a little space under the frames and I have oil trays under them. They are about 48 3/4" long. I use 3 regular inner covers. If I had made them shallower for medium frames I think they would use all 34 frames instead of just 26-28 they've that they have maxed on.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: Better.to.Bee.than.not on June 02, 2014, 01:06:48 am
Thanks Marktri. gives me something more to think about.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: minz on June 03, 2014, 06:55:46 pm
My kid won one at the beek picknic last year (August).  I built some follower boards and was going to use it as a big queen castle.  I caught a swarm in a trap end of the month and put it in there.  I used the follower board to keep the area to what they could use and have not checked it.  Mine has two inner covers to expose half of the hive at a time.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: BlueBee on June 03, 2014, 09:49:02 pm
I’m hoping to get one built this summer.  I believe TBeek has a wood based long hive in N Wisconsin that he really likes.  If I build one, it will be out of foam and use medium frames.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: Judd on June 22, 2014, 04:48:15 pm
Hello, newbie to TBH idea but think it is an interesting concept. Now the ideas of using the Langstroth frames appeals to me. I asked in an older thread so I'l ask here as well... Do folks plann on using foundation with the frames. I was under the impression part of the TBH idea was to have the bees build their own wax. Thanks
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: Better.to.Bee.than.not on June 22, 2014, 05:32:53 pm
Well either way you go, the bees build their own wax. a foundation is just the start the bees then draw it out themselves. often people, like myself will use a starter strip. but I am even moving away from that. I would personally use one frame of foundation though at least for the start. this will hopefully and usually get the bees to building straight there after.
 
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: ripplecreek on May 10, 2015, 04:29:16 pm
Hear is my Horizontal Langstroth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkBGeAwvhk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkBGeAwvhk)
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: cao on May 10, 2015, 04:45:08 pm
ripplecreek
  Nice video and nice work on the hive. 
  And welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: mtnb on May 13, 2015, 08:57:30 am
That is nice ripplecreek!

I was just thinking about this. I like the idea of a TBH but I also like the idea of using all 8 frame mediums and being able to intermix frames from different hives. I'm gonna put my hubby onto this project for when I (hopefully) split next year.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: little john on May 14, 2015, 05:06:07 am
I've been running Long Hives using standard frames (British National rather than Langstroth, but same principle) for some time now - it's a very sensible solution, imo.

But - it doesn't have to be Top Bars or Frames - there's a 3rd option: "Framed Top Bars" - i.e. solid Top Bars (as per the 'standard' top bar hive, without any gaps between them), with a frame fixed beneath. I made a few dozen of these a while back to fit a 12" deep Long Hive - which then allowed me to run several strands of fishing line across the frame to support the longer comb, and duly posted about this idea on a certain 'Barefoot' site - which went down like the proverbial lead balloon.

But - the bees are loving the larger combs which such frames allow, and the interchangability of these frames with my conventional hives is the only sensible way of running an apiary - imo, of course.

LJ
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: annette on May 18, 2015, 08:54:16 pm
Hear is my Horizontal Langstroth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkBGeAwvhk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkBGeAwvhk)

I just love this hive and wish I could find a hive like this to purchase.  I love how you thought of every little thing. Ventilation, bee space, bee escape on top, etc.  It really makes sense to me and with my bad back, this would be perfect. No heavy lifting.

I cant wait to see how the bees do in this hive.  Please keep us posted

Annette
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: shoshannama on June 30, 2015, 12:39:31 am
why would anyone want to go with a TBH, instead of for instance a horizontal One would have frames, "which we should all agree supports the comb better, helps prevent  them attaching comb to the sides/etc."

Should we all agree on that? I use TBH's and the comb has no problems being supported, though sometimes the bee keeper does not know how to hold them correctly.  The bees do a great job at supporting them, and because of the angle I have no side attachments.  Just have to wiggle the propolis on the top bar loose.

I would love to try a long lang, though I live in shb territory so keeping those top bars tight really helps.  We try to no give them any undefended space to enter.
Title: Re: Why not a horizontal Langstroth?
Post by: Eric Bosworth on July 01, 2015, 09:45:11 pm
OK I just noticed this thread. I built a top bar hive thinking I would try it. But I had read Michael Bush's book and realized that the problem with TBHs is standardization. I wanted to be able to move comb from one hive to another. I also wanted to leave options open if I didn't like it. So the easy solution was to take a 3, 1"x10"x8's (rough cut) cut 2 in half (46"... If you make them longer a 4x8 sheet of plywood wont work.) Cut one corner out for sides. Then the last one cut 4 ends. Then you can use a 4x8 sheet of plywood to make a top and bottom. That will get 2 4' deep hives. Quick, easy solution. I decided to use full frames not because I held them wrong but because I had comb attached to the sides. The bars were propolized and prying them apart when the comb was stuck to the sides didn't work for me. But because I made them to fit standard frames it is not a problem.