Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => DISEASE & PEST CONTROL => Topic started by: tbh-fan on April 19, 2007, 05:21:35 am
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hi guys,
recently i bought a duster from an agricultural supplier-the one used in vineyards for sulfur dusting-pretty cheap, so i thought i should give it a try
what do you think, could it be possible to mount a narrow plastic tube on the duster and introduce the tube into the hive, so a an even sugar cloud should occur, thus a minimum hive manipulation would be needed for the same dusting effect?
regards
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No I don't.I have never dusted before but part of being a beekeer is inspecting
your bees and handleing accordingly.Plus this is a small cell part of the Site.
This Sub group is under the Disease and Pest Control Naturel Organic Beekeeping Methods.The Disease snd Pest Control part is wrong.Small cell and natural comb and organic Beekeeping is just about pest control.
you should post your question on the Chemical side of the Board there is a lot of people over there who can help with treatment stuff
Your bees and you would be happier if you switched to small cell
kirko
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by using TBH he is automaticly switching to natural/small cell, but we all know this takes time, so in the mean time, he wants to treat chemical free.
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I occasionally do powdered sugar treatments. But using a duster I haven't done that. I don't think I have enough hives to warrant it. Also I am not sure if the powdered sugar could be pumped through a duster. I am simply not sure. It could very well be.
Also how would you get it to get the bees between the frames?
Sincerely,
Brendhan
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well, my hives are horizontal, with 25mm frames and with spacer bars in between (7 mm or 10 mm)
i could open only the spacer bars to have some access to the inside
i imagine the forced air flow from the duster should spread quite evenly from the point of sugar application
P.S.: yup, i chose the wrong section to post this thread, but i figured it out too late :-D
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oh, and also i have some access to the hive interior by removing the rear panel, which covers the back edges of SBB and solid bottom
i shall post some pictures of the hives soon
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by using TBH he is automaticly switching to natural/small cell, but we all know this takes time, so in the mean time, he wants to treat chemical free.
You are delivering really wrong information to beginners. Older beepers have gone from here. When bees make natural cells they do not naturally start to make smaller cells. Where hell that come from. I have measure my naturall cells they are all 5,3 mm.
The industrial foundation is compromise between several bee races. Carniolan bee has biggest cell size (=Slovenia?). It is shown in researches that Carniolan is not able to build 4,9 foundation. It tears it up.
Bees are everywhere free in nature, and they have not small cells. And they cannot fight much against varroa.
I noticed a statistics too, that only 2% use sugar as varroa treatment in USA Maarec area . The research searched answer, what is wrong in varroa treamnet in USA when dead rate is so big for varroa per year.
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I agree with Finsky on this, I use 1" small cell starter strips last year (they were given to me) , I wanted to see what would happen, I put these frames checker boarded in about 7 hives that were on Pierco foundation which measures about 5.25 and they drew the small cell foundation out fine but after that inch was drawn out every cell from there were larger, on a average of 5.2-5-4 , so that starter strip must only work if your bee's are regressed already and I think only a percentage will be less than 5.0.
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hmmm. eventually cells will get small enough? or not?
i measured our commercial foundation, it's 5,4.
i've seen some photos of Carnis being put on SC, they made a terrible mess, but, like all researches have shown, you can't just put the bees on 10 sheets of SC foundation, the generation raised on natural cells would probably build it ok? or not?
ok so TWT what you're saying is that no mather how long i put them on blank starter strips they won't regress?
on the other hand, TWT what you said is exactly what they have noticed, only the center brood nest is 4,9 and expanding to the out of the brood nest so your observation confirms other observations.
darn..slowly i'm getting the filling that my best shot would be to press the bees with full throttle so they'd swarm, and then put the swarms in a big 20 frames brood box of starter strips..ahh, geting more complicated every day...
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TWT what you said is exactly what they have noticed, only the center brood nest is 4,9 and expanding to the out of the brood nest so your observation confirms other observations.
If you really are able to read what is cell size in articles, you first note that there are different bee races (>20) make different size cells. Commercial 5,3 foundation is a compromise between different races and different size bees. Like human, horses what ever, there are variations in size between animals and individuals. Look at you family! In Siberia they choosed 5,6 mm to standard foundation one year ago.
http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/morphometry.html
http://www.funpecrp.com.br/GMR/year2003/vol1-2/pdf/gmr0057.pdf
It is sad that many beekeepers life and hobby is jammed on the level of something cell millimeters. Beekeeping is full of interesting things and 4,9 mm cannot be answer to all broblems what you get in front of you. It is awfull to notice that same harping continues from month to month.
NOTE THIS: THE BASIC OF BEEKEEPING IS
1) G O O D QUEENS = PLENTY OF BEES, CALM, NON SWARMING, HEALTY WHAT EVER
2) B I I I G HIVES, MUCH ROOM BOR BEES AND HONEY
2) G O O O O D PASTURES, WHER YOU PUT YOU HIVES AND THEY SHOW YOU WHAT THEY ARE ABLE TO DO
It is same what color or size you have in bees. With your skill it means nothing. To avoid swarming is essential. Take care of basic and you get much honey, you will learn to make business and meet succes in your life. Now I play with stock and it goes better than with those stupid tiny animals.
When you read about small cells, it needs only half an hour. It must be understood in that time.
The healthiness of bees comes from queen and from drones' semen, not from cell size.
Greetings from old fart
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ok, thanks for informations finsky! i'll keep in mind everything you say. to go on, i'll still give them starter strips, hell they build them even nicer so...it don't cost nothing, and later, after 2 years or so, i'll tell you results, if they'll regress and if they stay healthy without my help (mean while i'll check for mite infestation for sure and treat, if needed)
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Did you start with regressed bees?
When I take feral colonies that have been established in the wild for a while, you will notice different cell sizes. Drone eggs are laid in the largest. Those are generally near the outside walls of comb. The honey cells are slightly smaller than the drone cells but larger than the brood cells.
The brood cells for workers are the smallest.
If you start with a standard package of non regressed bees you will end up with larger brood cells until they have had time to regress.
Also in a standard feral hive the top rows of comb store honey, not brood. The cells may start out larger near the top but they get smaller the further down the comb goes.
I try to make a similar setup on my hives. Where I cheat is one the brood is full, The upper 20 rows are filled with honey. I then add my honey super and generally she doesn not immeditally move up and start laying brood. Maybe because she does not want to cross a honey frame. If I leave it there for months the bees will move the honey lower and then the queen will move up laying more brood(remember I run top entrances). Then I just have to lift up a few more hive bodies to get to my honey supers.
This is going to be an interesting year or me. lots of neat little experiments to run. None of my observations are scientifically based but they are working for me.
Sincerley,
Brendhan
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Topbarfan had question, how to use ice sugar against varroa
Does Slovenia have regressed or package bees?
Did you start with regressed bees?
When I take feral colonies that have been established in the wild for a while, you will notice different cell sizes. Drone eggs are laid in the largest. Those are generally near the outside walls of comb. The honey cells are slightly smaller than the drone cells but larger than the brood cells.
The brood cells for workers are the smallest.
If you start with a standard package of non regressed bees you will end up with larger brood cells until they have had time to regress.
What is that time to regress? Are they weeks, years, queen generations or what? If you keep 3 years queen, you must wait 3 years if next queen is willing to regress?
Further more, in that area of Europe they have high quality mite tolerant Carniolans which are better than Russians. That has scientific shown.
There is now idea that a beginner start to breed his own bee tolerant regressed bees in the hart of good beekeeping
When you are top bar fan, try to get those mite tolerant Carniolans and use top bars.
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http://www.bf.uni-lj.si/jbozic/slobeek.html
Beekeeping in Slovenia - Homeland of Carniolan Bee
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ok, now that finsky has started it, let me just tell yo why they are Carnis/Carniolans instead of "Slovenes/ Slovenians"
the story goes WAAAY back, around 0AD, people used to call rock instead of nowadays skala they said kar, later in 6th cent. AD a country Karantania/Carantania was established and it meant nothing but "rocky-home" kar-rock antan/stan/home. even later the former Carantania got divided into regions, one of them was Carniola/kranska.
i think that our bees natural mite tolerance just got better, last year i think that more than 50% of all bee population went down, although it was a hell of a winter it was no doubt varoa who destroyed them, so the bees that survived are probably more tolerant.
no finsky, we don't have either, no package and no regressed bees.
and finsky, please...you surelly know how one regresses his bees, i mean, c'mon you have had to read some of it?
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.you surelly know how one regresses his bees, i mean, c'mon you have had to read some of it?
This guy has regressed bees in Finland and he says that bees handle mites themselves.
I have bought queen from him but I am not satisfied with the size of bees and not with the temperament on Elgon. Crossing with Italians are swamy and agressive.
Mite is my friend. I have no problem with that. I like big bees. They carry big loads of honey. I like big honey yields.
But you guys in this forum you cannot see nowadays nothing else than small cells. After scientific researches small cell does not help against varroa.
MAKE YOUR DECISIONS AFTER FACTS AND TRY TO LEARN WHAT ARE FACTS IN INFORMATION WORLD. THAT IS BIGGEST JOB.
IF YOU DON'T CARE FACTS, IT IS SAME WHAT YOU TALK. IT HAS NO FUTURE. YOU CANNOT TAKE BACK YOUR WORDS EVERY DAY.
TO NURSE NATURAL WAY BEES IS ANOTHER QUESTION, BUT DONT MIX IT WITH SERIOUS HONEY PRODUCTION.
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i think that our bees natural mite tolerance just got better, last year i think that more than 50% of all bee population went down, although it was a hell of a winter it was no doubt varoa who destroyed them, so the bees that survived are probably more tolerant.
Europe has managed with varroa 25 years. Why it happens so heavily this winter? Have you thinked mobile phones or bad eye?
In Switcherland honey dew killed hives great pertangace a couple of years ago. Summer was extremely hot in Europe. What does it affected in hives.
* Honey dew yield was expectional.
* Nosema cerana is found in many place in Europe, in Finland too. It is quite lethal.
* Dry summer and it's affects killed 30% hives 4 years ago. Bees did not get pollen for winter bees.
Difficult to undestand that varroa makes so heavy losses. In our country it takes 2-3 years that varroa kills the hive if you do not make any treatments.
You hope that your stock is harder for varroa now ---- That is not serious way to handle the issue, it is not hope matter.
Actually you have just same gene pole in your area and one winter cannot shange anything. It is gene pole which means something. Not individual hives. And then we talk about tens of years. When breeders make theirs selection work, 5 years means allmost nothing. Perhaps 10 years' heavy selection and insemination gives results. Free mating and free evolution is slow.
Mic, I may say to you that you take too much advicer's responsibilyty when you discuss about very difficult issues.
You are young beekeeper, almost without experience. Even your hives are in danger to collapse down for fhysical resons.
You opinions (not knowledge) is not worth what you suppose. It do not make progress in beekeeping.
Beekeeping is not so primitive area of knowledge that every boy can make good questions.
I have saved this pronounce because it hurts you so much. But I must say not for you but all those 20 guys which now
share this "emotional base knowledge".
I try to keep my fingers off from this forum but often this wisdom goes too far here.
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you say he has regressed bees, and you tried them out, but you weren't satisfied with temper. now correct me if i'm wrong but i think that temper has little to do with mite resistance. so eventually if they were selected, they'd be ok? or what you wanted to say is that italians are resistanc, but you don't want them?
big bee, more honey? i thought this was a joke? are you sure?
hey, the fact is Ed and Dee Lusby spent decades to find a way to fight mites, lost houndreds of bee colonyes, and finally figured out that SC is the key, and are succesfully beekeeping for how long? more than decade i think. now, it's not scientific, but it's a FACT.
scientist also say CO2 makes global warming, but the FACT is it doesn't. scientist are no better than politics, give them the money and tell them what to say. soled out soles!!
finsky, very few members of this forum MIX natural beekeeping with big honey production, non the less it is a hobbyist forum.
no, last year it was varoa for sure, for example my menthor said that when he opened the hives in spring there was an inch thick varoa carpet on the bottom. so actually last year we got "rid of" of varoa non-tolerant gene pool. but by no chance i meant this is the solution, i just mentioned the gene pool just got a bit varoa hardier.
honey dew...that's why all beeks feed sugar, simply can't let the honeydew honey in. drought also isn't a problem, at least not around here, last year it was really dry, close to two months without a single drop of rain, yet honey yield was EXCEPTIONAL, one in..40 years.
2-3 years you say...i doubt my hives would withstand that long. plus, a friend of mine is observing the natural cycle of varoa, so far he estimated that varoa strikes really hard every 4 years, but i don't know how true that is, i'd just say that varoa is/are like pirates or something, they multiply and multiply and multiply until they go down with their hosts. of course a few hosts survive and the story is at it's beggining.multiply, multiply...
i know that my experience count very little/nothing, that's why i almost always say, that i've read that, i've heard that...now i'll make sure i say that, IF i'll give any advice, but hey, i usually just say it would be good to use starter strips, which actually is, they build them just perfectly! it don't hurt one bit.
finsky you didn't offend me, really, i'm glad i have at least one that tells me "to calm down", hehe.
you know what, no beekeeping forum can't trully live in all diversity, why? because almost every beek thinks HIS way of doing is THE ONLY right way to do a thing, period! i know, i mean just when i look at our (Slovenian) forum..
SC prevailed on this forum.
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but i think that temper has little to do with mite resistance.
Ofcourse. That bee race has blood from Elgon mountain Kenya and it happens have nasty nature.
. to say is that italians are resistanc, but you don't want them?.
Italians have no serious resistancy. I have not met.
However Italians are best honey bees in the world and I like them. I handeled handled mites 20 years with chemicals and I do not need resistency. Everything is under control.
But I got good genes from Elgon bees to my stock: pollen activity, rapid spring development and toleancy against chalk brood.
.hey, the fact is Ed and Dee Lusby spent decades to find a way to fight mites, lost houndreds of bee colonyes,.
Many have met Ed but how many have accept his style. There is something mysterious and one excplanation is that he has tame Africanisez beestock.
I do not want to loose 10 or hundreds colonies. I ahev only 25 now.
Ed's method to allow swarming is the biiggest mistake in beekeeping. Ed is Ed. he like swarming like Michael, but it is worst what bees may have.
But Mici, however you need basic knowledge to understand big issues. It is not enough that you pick some "facts" and mimic them like parrot .
If you like to nurse bees in natural way, say it. But dont' offer your 200 years old systems to anothers who want to live this day life and use best knowledge what humankind can offer.
so actually last year we got "rid of" of varoa non-tolerant gene pool.
You don't understand what is genepool. I can see it from that sentence. Very few understand it. It is as difficult as amino acids.
close to two months without a single drop of rain, yet honey yield was .
We have same. We had 20 mm rain in my area during 4 months. But honey yield was expe EXCEPTIONAL. When allways yield is finish at the end of July, then it gegun. Bees foraged honey dew whole August. Never happened that.
so far he estimated that varoa strikes really hard every 4 years,
Never heard and never noticed.
but i don't know how true that is, i'd just say that varoa is/are like pirates or something, they multiply and multiply and multiply until they go down with their hosts. of course a few hosts survive and the story is at it's beggining.multiply, multiply...
i know that my experience count very little/nothing, that's why i almost always say, that i've read that, i've heard that...now i'll make sure i say that, IF i'll give any advice, but hey, i usually just say it would be good to use starter strips, which actually is, they build them just perfectly! it don't hurt one bit.
finsky you didn't offend me, really, i'm glad i have at least one that tells me "to calm down", hehe.
Go on. I wrote about varroa and oxalic acid the whole year, and I noticed from guy's wrintings that it was all vain.
I wrote in British and in Beesource forum how to use oxalic acid and they learned. Knowledge has been in Europe many years.
Varroa is under control and now many countries have made hard work to get rid off AFB.
I have seen that chalk brood have rised in many countries. Before it was said that it does not kill hives. Now it is said that it makes severe losses in yields.
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you are right, i'm nothing but a parrot, but with all the best intentions!
you don't have to loose 10 or hundreds of colonies like Lusby's did, they lost them during trying to figure out the way, now you can use the knowledge they aquired so you would loose as little as possible, if any.
gene-pool, your probably right, but help me understand it. i thought that gene-pool is nothing else but the whole population, so by eliminating a part of that population you are eliminating a part of the gene-pool.
if not, what is it?
well finsky, what can i say, guilty as charged! i want to use as little chemicals as possible, i will try achiving it, and so far i advised people who asked about it, but i advised on other peoples observations/experience. i will stop doing it, until i have my own experience. deal?
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>It is shown in researches that Carniolan is not able to build 4,9 foundation. It tears it up.
That is simply not true and easily disproved. Typically Unregressed Carniolans on their first try will build somewhere around 5.1mm. On their second generation they will usually draw 4.9mm and smaller.
Here's a comb drawn by UNREGRESSED Carniolans:
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm
It's 4.7mm
Here's one from regressed Carniolans:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/PrimaryCombOnBlankStarterStrip.JPG
It's 4.6mm
Both of these are commercial Carniolans WITHOUT ANY FOUNDATION.
Try it.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
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Try it.
But what is the meaning of this? Try everything for what?
My professional friedns have told what have happened when they have tried small cell foundations. They have returned back to standard. They earn they living with beekeeping. To them it not toy like to me and most of us.
We have discussed this many times. We can breed all kind of animal mini and maxi. But for something purpose or for curiosity?
Man has breeded from wolf dogs whic are tiny and huge. Same with horse.
I kept Carniolans 10 years and my yield dropped for swarming 20%. Then I took again italians and my yield jumped +80%.
You Michael say that you aim is minimize work with bees. Is surely does seem that. You have poor pastures and you have too much hives in one place. You have small hives and small winterclusters. You have something else than get honey. Perhaps you sell those special bees or not? You loose over 50-75% with your topbar-natural-comb systems and with other stone age systems.
If you have made your experiments, I trust you and I need not go after you. I can learn what is your achiements and It is enough for me. With my experience I can read even between lines. It is my goals and aims what I go after. Not 100 different tricks what others are doing.
Of course you may play with breeding and generate many kinds of dogs from wolf. Regressed wolf in picture
(http://www.hemmy.net/images/animals/smallestdog.jpg)
here is diffrent size cells for regressed and nonregressed dogs for sale
(http://www.houseofhammocks.com/images/foundation.jpg)
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Here is famous research. Look table 1 about combs
http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm
But remember. I have not mite broblem. I use standard foundations. Mite does not disturb me. Mite disturbs me only in these forums when people are not able to handle varroa. In autumn I have 300-500 mites on the hive floor dead, and I am it suist for me. I need not bother my self.
Oxalic acid is so safe that Europen Union does not want to measure residuals.
However it is greatly interested about the added sugar in the honey. It is too known that ice sugar dust kills larvae.
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>You loose over 50-75% with your topbar-natural-comb systems and with other stone age systems.
Not really. Most years I lose between 0% and 10%. Back when I had large cell comb and Apistan treatments for Varroa, I lost 100%.
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>You loose over 50-75% with your topbar-natural-comb systems and with other stone age systems.
Not really. Most years I lose between 0% and 10%. Back when I had large cell comb and Apistan treatments for Varroa, I lost 100%.
The reason is not Apistan and normal cell. You have some systematic error in your beekeeping.
Here is yields during varroa & Apistan period from British Columbia. http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/apiculture/statistics/industry90-05.pdf
If you put data in exel grafics, you se that yields are between 60 and 100 lb. Average is 80 lb.
Every where you may read that Varroa dropped those beekeepers away which did not nothing to control mite.
So you are delivering knowledge that don't do nothing. That helps against varroa.
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gene-pool, your probably right, but help me understand it. i thought that gene-pool is nothing else but the whole population, so by eliminating a part of that population you are eliminating a part of the gene-pool.
if not, what is it?
But Mici, as youg person you look matter sentence by sentence.
Who in the world does so that whole nation's bees are contaminate with something pest and then we look what happens?
Right and only way is breed and select small groups and when solutions has found, then better genepool is delivired to beekeepers.
I have attitude that this and other forum is for serious discussions. Not for casting all kind of lips what come in mind. "Varroa kills 50% and then things are better". And that you are teaching to new beekeepers?
I perhaps understand one man's nature laboratory with 4 hives, but whole nations beekeeping... Readers must be very humorous to understand what is your meaning.
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loo, all i mean with last year losses is that it was another step towards EVOLUTIONARY mite resistanc bee breed. by no chance i meant that last years losses mean a turn over in beekeeping.
i believe things got better, BUT a little, that's all
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>The reason is not Apistan and normal cell. You have some systematic error in your beekeeping.
The reason for those losses was Varroa that is resistant to Apistan and cells that help them reproduce:
http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid1999/btdoct99.htm#Article3
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hey, sorry for such a late reply, guys???
I did not expect that this thread would get so much posting traffic at all-almost like the one about the varroa shaman :-D
first, I agree with you, MB, the Carnis easily build smaller cells than 5.4, I can prove it, next weekend I will take some shots about newly drawn comb on blank wooden starter strips on 32-33 mm comb spacing-I did not measure the cell size yet, but it is visibly smaller that on the foundation-drawn combs
moreover, a week ago, some of the partially drawn combs had already plenty of eggs!
but guys, the thread was intended to discuss the use of the duster in simplifying or not the sugar dusting treatment.....
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Personally I think small cell is a misnomer. I prefer to call it natural cell. By using starter strips only as a "start here" guide the bees will build the comb the same way they would in the wild, hence natrually.
The bees build comb from wood to wood. In the process you'll find storage comb, drone comb, and worker brood comb all on the same frame just as in nature. There are generally three sizes of comb in every beehive (not counting queen cells) and the bees build as much of each kind as they need. When they have a sufficient amount of drone and worker comb the remainder will be storage comb.
I prefer to let the bees build the type of comb they need. Also, by letting them build the comb naturally they will build it more quickly and more consistantly if viewed from the type comb for specific use POV.
It is a matter of letting the bees be bees. Getting into an arguement over small cell vs. large cell or standard cell misses the point. Foundation is a forcing the bees to use a universal type of cell size strickly for the convenience of the beekeeper.
One last point. Using natrual built comb might use more of the honey production towards comb building the 1st year but after that it is all the same cost wise. However, based soely on my observations a hive building comb naturally will build it faster and have an equivalent harvestable honey crop as a hive using foundation. It is not uncommon for me to find that the hive natural builds comb to out produce a hive using foundation, everything else being equal.
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Using natrual built comb might use more of the honey production towards comb building the 1st year but after that it is all the same cost wise. However, based soely on my observations a hive building comb naturally will build it faster and have an equivalent harvestable honey crop as a hive using foundation. It is not uncommon for me to find that the hive natural builds comb to out produce a hive using foundation, everything else being equal.
Brian. You mocked me that I am not able to learn new things. I have shown these studies many times and no help.
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm
And when bees make their own combs they make more drone cells.
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html
Brian, why do you think that professionals use foundations if natural combs are better?
And natural cells have nothing to do with mites. Bees die first with their natural cells if beekeepers is not protencting them.
What is the idea to deliver wrong information to new beekeepers? That is why I am here again.
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Finsky:
1. I did not mock you, I'm sorry if you came to that conclusion, your approach and mine are from different perspectives. Not everybody sees things the same way, or wants to. That was the point I was trying to make.
2. I have evolved into advocating natural beekeeping. To that end I was explaining comb development from that perspective. Bees desire to have a given amount of drone comb. With foundation they will chew up the corners of the sheets so they can build drone comb--thats a fact. They will also store honey in both drone and worker brood comb.
3. I have kept bees the way you advocate and done so very successfully, but wringing the maximum amount of honey production (income) from the bees is no longer my objective.
4. If a person wants to be a successful commercial beekeeper I would advise them to follow your management practices to the letter. Ditto for Cold weather survival management.
5. There are more that one way to skin a rabbit, I know of at least 3, which method I choose is up to me. There are many more than 3 ways to keep bees. Many like the natural method, some want strictly organic methods, others want to learn everything they can--all the different approaches, and still others, having learned the basics want to experiment.
6. As I've said before; I believe in giving people the information they ask for and letting them decide weather they want to use it or not. Right or Wrong.
7. My mentor began beekeeping in 1899. When he was in his mid 80's he tried to teach me everything he had learned. Some of what I was taught I've had to unlearn as I found it in error. This is why I maintain the experience is the best teacher.
8. I think it admirable that you are willing to share your knowledge with others, please allow me the same privalege even if you don't agree with all of it.
If you are going to get upset over people sharing their viewpoints I don't know what to tell you. A lot of different viewpoints, experiences, and educational levels are a part of this forum. I don't agree with everything everybody says--far from it, but I respect their right to say it and laud them for there willingness to share. That's all any of can ask or give.
Brian
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Here is famous research. Look table 1 about combs
http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.ht
Oxalic acid is so safe that Europen Union does not want to measure residuals.
However it is greatly interested about the added sugar in the honey. Is too known that ice sugar dust kills larvae.
Finsky has brought up a point that I have been mulling in my head over and over.
It is regarding the above statement that "it is known than ice sugar dust kills larvae". A couple of days ago I was thinking about the icing sugar treatment and how good it would be if one ascertained that there was a mite problem during a time when chemicals of any sort would be out of the question.
My thoughts led me to this statement that Finsky made. So, the sugar dust has permeated the hive after it is applied. The dust gets into the unsealed larvae. That is obvious. I am of the impression that larvae must be kept moist or they plain and simply die. My question that requires an answer is:
Do the larvae die because of the sugar dusting that has gone into their cell before capping?
Have a wonderful day, do some thinking about this, comments would be all a good thing. Best of health. Cindi
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Finsky:
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2. I have evolved into advocating natural beekeeping.
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What ever beekeeper you are, there are common facts which are not dependen on what you are thinking and how old is you menthor. My first menthor was born about 1890. I just saw systems on his yard what you are now diskussing here.
Strange this is that natural beekeeper is able to denie factc what guide greedy beekeeper.
Some are these and they are same what ever beekeepr you are:
* good yields come from pastures, not from combs.
* Even if you nurse bees with same method, and yard's distance is only 3 miles, yield may be 3-5 fold.
* When bees make wax, they consume 6-8 kg honey for one 1 kg wax. One 1 wax goes when bees draw one langstroth box foundations.
* One L. box have 1 kg foundations.
I had hives on splended fireweed pastures. I gived to hive 3 medium box foundations. In three week they draw all foundations and hives all had 240 lbs cappad honey in one time.
3 miles away I have same size hives on rape field. They got 60-80 lbs honey, and they did not draw even one foundations box. Summer was very hot and nectar come only on moist soil pastures.
You are not able "to see" how much bees consume honey to wax making. How much they spend, is common truth, and I cannot understand how so many is able to turn the fact so favorit himself.
But every people formulate his own truth and people read "fact" to sustain his own former attitudes.
One leading guy in Finland claim that bees exrecete wax all the time same measure. He claims that it is same how much you give them foundations.
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In horticulture guys claim that a big tree catches so and so much dust from air. If it is true, every year I should see one new cubic square meter dust under the tree and after 10 years amount of lorry. - But I cannot see it. So, I am a bad environmentalist when I cannot see that dust heap under the tree.
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"You sing that gang's songs to where you want to belong"
It is called "collective truth" and nothing to do with your personal truth. - You know fenomenom:" Emperor has no clothes!"
(http://www.foothill.edu/fa/archives/Emperor/images/f.med.jpg).
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I gived to hive 3 medium box foundations. In three week they draw all foundations and hives all had 240 lbs cappad honey in one time.
Foundation is only the bottom part of the cells. Just how much wax could that possibly be? Surely there couldn't be that much more honey needed to build just that little bit of cell bottom. So while you claim huge differences in yield between foundation and no foundation, I just can't see it. I can see a possible increase between fully drawn comb and no wax at all.
In horticulture guys claim that a big tree catches so and so much dust from air. If it is true, every year I should see one new cubic square meter dust under the tree and after 10 years amount of lorry. - But I cannot see it. So, I am a bad environmentalist when I cannot see that dust heap under the tree.
You should live here where the dust really blows. If there is dust in the air and there is something to block the wind then the dust will fall out of the air. It doesn't have to be a tree, just a little clump of grass. I have seen dirt build up on the leeward side of rocks in one day. You don't have to be an environmentalist or a horticulture guy to see this happen here. Wind picks up the dirt. When the wind stops blowing or is blocked by something, the dirt falls out of it.
Now you might not notice a build up under or around a tree because the wind might also come from another direction at another time and pick that dirt back up and move it some where else.
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Foundation is only the bottom part of the cells. Just how much wax could that possibly be?
When you bye langstrot foundations, one sheet weights 100 g. One box needs 10 sheets= 1 kg wax.
Surely there couldn't be that much more honey needed to build just that little bit of cell bottom. So while you claim huge differences in yield between foundation and no foundation, I just can't see it. I can see a possible increase between fully drawn comb and no wax at all.
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You should live here where the dust really blows. If there is dust in the air and there is something to block the wind then the dust will fall out of the air. It doesn't have to be a tree, just a little clump of grass.
Hmmm... I have seen pictures. Texas is like Sahara. Nothing else but dust and oil. Not even lonely cowboy.
I wander if you still need icing sugar to kill mites after that sand. Sandstorm in Texas.
(http://users.apex2000.net/ajbergstrom/Sandstorm.jpg)
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I need to have answers to the question about the icing sugar dust killing larvae because of the icing sugar dehydrating or coating the larvae so that there is not moisture in their cell. Best of a very beautiful day, the sun is shinin'. Great health to all. Cindi
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When you bye langstrot foundations, one sheet weights 100 g. One box needs 10 sheets= 1 kg wax.
Perhaps so. I never weighed it. But I do know that the foundation a person buys, or makes, is a lot thicker than what the bees make on the bottom of a cell.
Surely there couldn't be that much more honey needed to build just that little bit of cell bottom. So while you claim huge differences in yield between foundation and no foundation, I just can't see it. I can see a possible increase between fully drawn comb and no wax at all.
???????????????
What did you not understand?
Hmmm... I have seen pictures. Texas is like Sahara. Nothing else but dust and oil.
Those would be pictures on the plains in the panhandle of Texas. It is caused by all the wide open farm land we have and very little wind blocks. Texas is nothing like the Sahara. Here are some pictures of a desert in Texas.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/ninepoint.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/santiago.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/Blackhill.jpg)
Sorry Cindi. I don't know why the sugar causes larva to die.
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jep, foundation we buy is awfully thick
so..if you look at a cell you see that the bottom represents what?1/6 maybe even less of the surface? plus that surface serves on the other side aswell, i've noticed that bees thiner the foundation we give them, maybe they use it to build cell wals?
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i've noticed that bees thiner the foundation we give them, maybe they use it to build cell wals?
When bees make heir own combs, the growing edge of comb is quite thick. Bees rework it thinner.
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I'm not getting an answer to the sugar dusting. If it is said that the sugar dust kills the larvae, why do it? This is a stronger statement, has anyone got any answers yet? Best of the beautiful day, it is raining, germinating millions of seeds that I have set. Best of good health wishes for all. Cindi
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Italian spesialist Nanetti write about sugar system that it is very work intensive to use.
It has not been taken seriously because there are much more easier methods. In normal beekeeping you cannot manage with unefficient systems.
Oxalic acid is the most cheap and the most harmless to honey users.
Thymol and formic acid is used in another circumtancies but they are effective too.
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I find it a little strange you haven't gotten an answer yet. I have never dusted so I don't have a clue. I have this flat pan sitting out with comb I crushed the honey out of. I let the bees clean it until it seems dry and then I pour water in it and sit it out again. I have stood for quite awhile looking at the bees as they suck up the liquid. I have bees that are mostly all black and go all the way to a creamy yellow color. I look really hard for any signs of mites but I can't find any. I might try to get a picture today when they are really busy there and post it.
So! Anyone got an answer for Cindi?
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Jerry, the problem with trying to see the mites on the bees outside the hive, is that: there are more mites inside the hive, living inside the capped brood, breeding, having a great time in there eating up the lives of the pupae. Just because you don't see mites on the bees does not mean that you may not have a mite problem. I am serious.
I did not notice any mites on my bees outside either. I even looked at pictures I had taken and didn't see any. But I know for a fact that I had extremely high mite counts.
When I did the sticky board mite count in the middle of September (way, way, way, way too late), I don't even want to tell how many mites I had over a three day period. It is too embarassing to say aloud or on my computer screen. It was horrible!!!!! Have a beautiful day, wonderful life, great health. Cindi
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I got some hives from another individual that had not done anything to the hives in a while. (Health problems) The bees had built comb all over everything. Top frames stuck to bottom frames. There was drone comb with drones in between the frames. Poor little guys would fall out as I pulled the mess apart. I inspected every one I found and didn't see any signs of mites. Still have a bunch to go through. The weather just doesn't cooperate. We are 5 inches over normal rain fall already this year. Last year we didn't have any rain. Then we get those 40 mph winds. Then on the few decent days I am stuck baby sitting my daughters kids while she is going to nursing school. But I think this coming weekend will be great for digging into hives.
Hope you get an answer to the powder sugar killing larva question.
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Jerry, holy roly. YOu got some big work ahead of you. Looking after little children (how old are your grandchildren anyways?) sure can take the works out of ya. They really are needy little critters, I know that one. I babysat for my daughter for years at times. They are now 8 and 12 so they look after themselves pretty much. But, sounds like yours are a little younger.
Have fun on the weekend when your weather is more cooperative. Great day, great health, life is great. Cindi
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Two boys. Oldest just turned three years, and the other is five months. He has found four wheel drive and is going to town.
Opps. Getting off topic. Ain't we good at it?
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i found a few mites on bees walking in front of hives, one had 2 mites on it, that was about two weeks ago, so i hurried up with vinegar vaporizer "invention". i can't say how efficient it is but so far it looks like it is. like i persumed, 2 of my hives were in my opinion invaded worse than other 3.
after medicating them, there was around 20-30 mites in those two, in others less than 5. medicated them twice, have to do it again in friday.
i just hope the honey isn't going to be saury :-D
so far, it looks like it's working, i'll be able to say more in autumn, when i'll testly use another medicament.
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so i hurried up with vinegar vaporizer "invention". i can't say how efficient it is but so far it looks like it is.
You should trust on experts. http://www.alp.admin.ch/themen/00502/00515/00519/index.html?lang=en
Look below link: Bee tolerance of different winter Varroa treatments
Why to use not ranked treatments?
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Cindi- Randy Oliver writes for ABJ. He is up to part six of a series about varroa control. This months article deals w/ drone trapping and suger dusting. He provides some good sources for his opinions. He has a web site too. www.randyoliver.com where I understand his articles are available w/o charge but I've never personally looked. I have enjoyed his articles immensely. Understandable and pragmatic. He believes sugar dusting will affect some eggs, but few. Mites kill more bees than sugar dusting ever could. He reaches the conclusion that the positives far outweigh minimal negatives of dusting. He goes into the "math" of mites and dusting and drone trapping. good stuff.
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. good stuff.
But remember: Only 2% in US use sugar against varroa. I think that in Europe it is less. But if you want to be special - it is your chance!
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Cindi,
To answer your question; the sugar shake may cause the death of uncapped brood due to suffication.
If enough powdered sugar gets into anyone cell then the larvae might sufficate before the nurse bees have time to remove the dust.
I do not see it as a serious problem, the bees natural hygenic tendencies correct the problem somewhat. Even if 10% of the open larvae on a comb sufficated it is only a temporary set back. Compare that to the loss of the entire hive from mite overload.
Sugar shake is my preferred method of mite control. It doesn't contaminate the wax as checmicals might and it can be combined with water by the bees to produce a type of nector, hence honey stores that the bees can use.
There is one aspect of this conversation that not even Finsky has addressed, maybe he can find a reference to it. How much of an impact does extreme cold weather conditions (such as one might find in Finland or Norway or Alaska) affect mite populations and reproduction? I have a hunch that the answer to that question might make a difference in what Finsky is experiencing and those of us in more moderate climates are experiencing.
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Cindi,
There is one aspect of this conversation that not even Finsky has addressed, maybe he can find a reference to it. How much of an impact does extreme cold weather conditions (such as one might find in Finland or Norway or Alaska) affect mite populations and reproduction?
I have not seen comparations between cold and hot temperature. Of course long brooding time makes more mites but every beekepers adapt their works according their environment. Varroa killing is easy act if hives have brood brake. But if you are afraid of chemicals, it is surely difficult. In cold climate varroa makes bees weaker and they suffer long wintering.
Worst situation is in warm countries like in New Zealand and South Africa. Bees are in nature and hive are dying in varroa. Strong nursed bees rob weakened hives and get in one day huge miteload. In New Zealand they had to polish varroa away 3 times per year and often it is not enough. When brood is always in hive, varroa treatment is very different.
Links? Every area or country has it's recommendations for treatment. They are in Internet.
Sugar shake is my preferred method of mite control. It doesn't contaminate the wax as checmicals might and it can be combined with water by the bees to produce a type of nector, hence honey stores that the bees can use.
Chemicals and chemicals. It is vain to put them into one pot and shake them together. Recommended varroa treatments are at least 20 different and few leave residues into wax or honey. Natural beekeepers have done thier own legislation and rules and researches are not needed in that issue.
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I am using the Bob Noel and Dr. James Amrine method of formic acid treatment with excellent results. It is a 24 hour treatment not like the Mite Away II treatment (21 days), or any of the others for weeks treatment periods. I followed the directions, made the fume board from their links and things went extremely well. I had dead mite counts close to 600 and on some of the boards did not count them as there were so many. . This treatment uses a 50 percent formic acid mixture with Honey B Healthy which stops or almost stops any queen problems. Their latest research had no queen problems and after two treatment cycles myself have had none. The formic acid vaporizes and actually gets into the cells where the bees are and kills mites in capped brood. Anyway, while you are scouting around trying to figure out what method you want to do visit these link and make your mind up. I did not take off my medium honey super during the treatment. You can google on Dr. James Amrine and Bob Noel and see them often involved in their research.
wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa06
John Jones
Stone Mountain, Georgia