Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.

[Thetreehouse]

Hi Everyone,

I?m new to beekeeping (2 weeks) however I?m very much enjoying learning all I can about this wonderful hobby. This forum has certainly been very help indeed. I?m hoping however that someone could shed a little light on a situation I?m experiencing at the moment which relates to my current temporary Hive Setup, and also about Guard Bees. I?ll first give you an overview of the setup I?ve currently got, & how I?ve rather rapidly become involved with bees.

2 weeks ago I had to relocate a hive of bees that landed about three years ago in a gum tree in my backyard. I live on the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria (Australia). The bees actually took over a large Parrot Nesting Box which was situated about 5 meters up in the gum tree. Up until now the bees have always been completely left alone, as would normally be the case in the wild. However unfortunately the gum tree had been developing some serious issues for quite some time so i had to have it removed.

Before cutting it down though I decided to purchase my first ever brand new 8 frame hive for the Parrot Box bees to live in. The plan after removing the Parrot Box/Bee Hive from the tree was to temporarily connect it to the top of the new box. To achieve this I blocked the Parrot Boxes original entry point & I drilled a 40mm hole in the bottom of it, & another hole in the top of the new hive box. I then aligned the 2 holes & strapped the 2 boxes together. This way the bees can continue to have and maintain their original hive as our winter approaches. I?m hoping in time that the bees will move down into the new box & i?ll then eventually be able to remove the Parrot Box completely. Their only entrance/exit now is via the bottom of the new box. Both boxes are sitting on a timber stand I built which is raises them approximately 600mm from the ground.

Anyway, all went very well with the relocation, and the bees certainly appear to be carrying on with their lives in their new palacial home, that?s now located in a much more suitable part of my yard, which gets lovely morning sun & afternoon shade. At the moment they appear to be continuing to live primarily in the Parrot Box & also clustering to the underside of the new hive lid, where the 2 holes I made connect.

With regard to my current setup, my intention for the next 6 or so months is to leave the bees alone to allow them to fully settle in & get through winter. I?ll then probably put a honey super on top of the current new box, & remove the Parrot Box once they?ve moved down. I haven?t inspected the contents of the Parrot Box as yet because I fear I?ll probably damage their comb/original hive by lifting the Parrot Box lid, which is the only way to get into it. With winter coming on soon I think its probably best to just leave them alone until maybe Aug/Sept. Would this be considered a good plan for now? Any guidance on this approach would be much appreciated.

In the meantime over the past 2 weeks I?ve spent a stack of time reading a number of beekeeping books & watching a tonne of online videos to learn as much as I can about bees, how to care for them, and what my responsibilities are. In fact although I have zero experience, I actually feel like I now know quite a bit about bees as a consequence of my recent research. I?d really love to find a nearby mentor, so on that note, I?m wondering if there?s anyone in the vacinity of the Mornington Peninsula (Mount Martha area) who would be willing to mentor me for a while. If so, that would be absolutely fantastic & also very much appreciated of course.

Secondly, could anyone tell me why all of a sudden the guard bees are taking a particular dislike to me. Up until a few days ago I?ve been able to approach the hive without any problem, & I?ve been enjoying standing quietly about 1 meter away from the hive?s entrance watching the bees come and go. For the past few days though, almost every time I get within a couple of meters of the hive a number of guard bees attack me. I know that they?re very protective of their hive, but why do you think things have changed from what used to be an enjoyable & painless exercise? When the guard bees attack me, they?re not just ?bumping? me, they?re actually immediately latching on and stinging. It happens very quickly.

Any advice or info that anyone is able to offer me with regard my above plan (ie Parrot Box/New Hive situation), or why I?m all of a sudden experiencing issues with the guard bees, would be very much appreciated.


Thanks in advance for any help you?re able to give me via this forum. I?m going to keep my fingers crossed for a mentor in my area.

All best for now,

Regards

Paul - from Mount Martha, Victoria, Australia.

[Acebird]

OK you are in Australia and I am in Upstate NY ... keep that in mind.
If you are approaching fall the B.. iches that are about to die have nothing to lose.  You upset them and they remember.
I think the box you added on the bottom is useless base on your description.  I would have suggested adding the box to the top in the spring time or taking the bottom off the Parrot nesting box and putting it on top of your lang.  Wait until the parrot box gets full of honey then pull it off and harvest.  You really can't do anything in the fall unless you wanted to cut out the whole hive from the parrot box and assemble it into the lang.  That runs the risk of killing the queen.

[Thetreehouse]

Hi, Thank you for your response.  Much appreciated.   

To reiterate, the Parrot Nesting Box containing the colony of bees is on top of my Lang.  A 40mm hole was drilled into the bottom of the Parrot Box, and another 40mm hole was drilled into the top of the Lang.  The 2 holes were then aligned, and the boxes strapped together, - as shown in the attached pic.

[cao]

Welcome to the forum.   

I think you have a good plan.  With it being fall in your area, I would not advise opening the parrot box now.  As I see it you have a couple options come spring.  Once stuff is blooming and there is a flow, you could do a cutout on the parrot box and rubber band any brood comb into the frames of the lang box.  Or you could wait until they move down into the lang box naturally, then remove the parrot box which should be all honey.  The downside to waiting would be trying to inspect the hive with the parrot box attached to the top of the hive.  I would spend the time in the off season(winter) researching cutouts.

As far as the mean guard bees go, I would say that after the move the bees had to get use to the new conditions.  Now they are familiar with their new surroundings and are trying to protect themselves from the pesky human that moved them.   One thing that I have learned is that bees do remember being mistreated.  Give them a couple weeks to calm down. 

[Acebird]

I have no idea what your winters are like or for that matter what your fall is like.  What concerns me is a cavity more then double the size of your parrot hive being empty through the winter.  I wouldn't be convinced that the 1.5in hole is enough to get them to except the lang hive.  My third concern is what type of bee is this?  From posts that I have read from your country you have a nasty wild bee that is prevalent.  So do you really want them?

[eltalia]

At the moment they appear to be continuing to live primarily in the Parrot Box & also clustering to the
 underside of the new hive lid, where the 2 holes I made connect

G'day Paul... nice pix of your ingenuity, well done... on all counts.
For the problem quoted above grab yourself a tube of painters cellulose based gap
filler. I can see you have done a weather seal around the base of the box so go to
where the bees are clustered to find the gap they are sniffing at, - goop that up.
They are chasing leaking phereomone(sp?). To do it you could apply some smoke
to disperse bees and let them know you are working,
Also might be prudent to restrict that entrance to around 4.5mm high untill you
 have a definite result in some transfer happening.
Being stung?
As @cao said it is very likely the colony has already begun moving down and so
 you are being introduced. If it harms none other than yourself "helicoptering"
their progress then I would advise leaving them bee for at least three weeks.
Come back at that time to duscuss how to complete a transfer and remove
the parrot box for winter.

Bill

[eltalia]

Thanks in advance for any help you?re able to give me via this forum. I?m going to keep my f
figgers crossed for a mentor in my area.
All best for now,
Regards
Paul - from Mount Martha, Victoria, Australia.

G'day Paul.
In my earlier submission I was going to comment on "ventilation" but thought
better of it as I reckoned for sure you had this covered, just not in plain view
from your pix.
Then I found the quotes below... made by you elsewhere.

"Should i be sliding that bottom board in at night to help them keep warm, or not? Is their an actual
temperature that a beekeeper would deem cold for the bees, and as a result decide to slide the board in."

and

"Currently there isn?t any ventilation apart from the hole that leads into the top of the lang. "

So, two birds with one stone kinda thing.. close that slider board for now and
 leave it closed, always. Plan to revamp your whole BB to solid board with
12mm to 15mm risers at box wall width, typically 25mm.
Remove that entrance and replace it with a fullwidth entrance. Make a
vertical sliding closure vane to sit over the new entrance and leave it open at 4.5mm
at one end.
Using a 2mm drillbit make a pattern of holes around 4mm apart in the sunset side of
the parrotbox, screen & weathersheild  the resulting 40mm by 40mm area.
The above will not do any harm not already done but just may improve tbe temperment
 of those bees, or subdue some their defensiveness.
There is further reason but I will stick to the point, for now.

I am using this forum as per your invite (quoted). This for two reasons;
I do not and will not post to the forum I lift your text from. Objectively I would comment
you would go a long way in that place to discover any true knowledge. Basically it is a
place of numptys well pleased with illusion and so posting strawmen.
Secondly.
From what I read you are well endowed with ambition and creativity and
attention to detail.
These will serve you well in pursuit of bee things.

Bill

[iddee]

My biggest question is, do you have frames and foundation in the lang? If not, all you are doing is for naught.

[eltalia]

My biggest question is, do you have frames and foundation in the lang?
If not, all you are doing is for naught.

"Before cutting it down though I decided to purchase my first
ever brand new 8 frame hive for the Parrot Box bees to live in. "

In "Oz-tray-lyn" Wally, that means; "I purchase a flatpacked deal ready to go",
Now we(royal) can come in after the fact to argue 4/four frames and divider
boards or the whole 8 in foundationless, or plasticore, or wired or not wired, 
buuut it should be safe to assume Paul has done the yards in researching and
so has built some sort of config in the Lang the bees  could accept.
It certainly 'sounds' like they are at it like ducks to water :)

Bill

[iddee]

""At the moment they appear to be continuing to live primarily in the Parrot Box & also clustering to the underside of the new hive lid, where the 2 holes I made connect.""

This is what concerns me, Bill. How are they clustering there if there are frames in the box?

[Acebird]

I haven?t inspected the contents of the Parrot Box as yet because I fear I?ll probably damage their comb/original hive by lifting the Parrot Box lid, which is the only way to get into it.

Paul, are you trying to save the parrot box?  My thought would have been to cut the bottom off so you could see how much a hive is in it.
I looked at Melbourne to see where it is and thought with it being on the southern shore of Australia it would be a colder climate.  I didn't realize that it only reaches about 38 degrees latitude so you are relatively warm.

[Thetreehouse]

Hi Bill, Acebird, Iddee and Cao, for your responses, info and guidance.  Very much appreciated.

To answer a few of the questions asked:

Response to 'Cao', Yes, i think your approach is what i'll end up doing, ie I'll wait for now and then perform a cutout from the Parrot box after winter. Although they now have a totally empty Lang box below them to content with, their current set up is too much different to what they originally have. They still have their Parrot Box to occupy through winter, and if they want to expand, they now have an 8 frame lang to move into.

Response to 'Iddee',  'Yes' the Lang has 8 frames inserted with wax foundations. At this stage though the bees are clustering above all of the frames, on the underside of the Lang lid which is approx 50mm from the top of the frames. The 40mm hole/entrance in through the bottom of the Parrot box is located there.  They are clinging/clustering onto and around that hole. Currently they are not doing anything with the new frames, apart from crawling over them to get up to the top and through to the parrot box.  That 40mm hole in the lid is the only way they can get into the parrot box now. I closed the original Parrot box entrance when i removed the box from my tree a couple of weeks ago.

Response to 'Acebird', The bees are European Honey Bees.  Also regarding the Holes i cut to allow the bees access into their original home (the Parrot Box), the holes are 40mm round. One in the top of the Lang and the other in the bottom of the Parrot Box.  The 2 holes have then been aligned so that the bees can get in/out or the Parrot Box. They are all now entering the Lang via the bottom landing entrance and then climbing up through the Lang to the inside of the Lang lid. Once they are there, they are entering the Parrot box through the 40mm hole. Its the only way in and out. The underneath of the Lang lid is quite clustered with bees.  I assume that the Parrot Box is also full of them and their comb.  They haven't started to build on the new Lang frames as yet, however they've only had access to them for approx 2 weeks.  When it starts to get cold, I'll slide the bottom board in, which will help keep the inside warm.  Currently the bottom the lang is made of stainless steel mesh which is currently fully open to the outside air. Its still quite warm here, especially during the day ie 30 degrees C. I'll leave the slide out until the days/nights start to cool down.

Response to 'Bill - Eltalia', Thank you for your detailed response and advice. As mention above, I feel that if i slide the bottom board in now, there won't be enough ventilation for the 2 boxes.  Our days are currently quite hot - 30C+.  I was thinking that i would leave that slide out until it starts to get cold. Maybe around late April. I haven't done any weather sealing around the bottom of the box. The Lang is just sitting on the stand i built for it.
Where the bees are clustered, is where the 40mm round hole is that allows them to get into the top Parrot Box.  I assume they're clustering there because the Parrot box is probably quite full at the moment.  When the Box was still situated up my gum tree (before the tree was cut down), the bees used to cluster on the out side of the Parrot box. It appears that they are continue to do that now, however they can't cluster where they used to (where the original entrance to the Parrot Box was) because i closed that up with some marine ply. 
With regard to my lang entrance, it was initially almost a full width entrance at the bottom of the lang.  i decide to reduce the width to 100mm x 10mm.  The bees seem to be ok with that.  I haven't had much of an issue with the guard bees since reducing the width of the entrance.   Lastly Bill, I'm not sure what you mean in your last Para "I am using this forum as per your invite (quoted)", etc, etc.  Could you expand/explain.

Thanks everyone for your input.  I'm finding this new hobby of mine very interesting indeed.

Regards, Paul.

[iddee]

That 2 in. space between the lang lid and the frame tops will be the first place they draw comb in the lang hive. Bees hate frames and will always fill other areas first.
In your case, they will draw comb to fill the parrot box, then fill the 2 in. space, then lastly, draw comb on the frames.

You need to remove the bottom of the parrot box, cut the box off at the bottom of existing comb, then set on the lang within 6mm of the top of the frames.
The only alternative is do a total cutout in the spring.

[Acebird]

You need to remove the bottom of the parrot box, cut the box off at the bottom of existing comb, then set on the lang within 6mm of the top of the frames.

My thoughts too but couldn't he just set the parrot box right on the frames?  Use temporary strips of plywood to cover the exposed frames in the lang box.  I am not one for feeding but if he fed like crazy it might push brood out of the parrot box.  Once full of syrup and honey take the box off and lay it on its side or upside down for them to rob out.

[iddee]

Ace, we don't know how much space is under the comb in the parrot box. There MAY be enough for 50 lb. of sugar honey. Also, he is entering fall. They aren't going to draw comb until spring, if he has 4 seasons in his area. I would also have a ""bee space"" between the boxes so they didn't lock them together with propolis or fill with comb and drone cells or honey.

[eltalia]

Hi Bill, Acebird, Iddee and Cao, for your responses, info and guidance.  Very much appreciated.
(edit)
Lastly Bill, I'm not sure what you mean in your last Para "I am using this forum as per
your invite (quoted)", etc, etc.  Could you expand/explain.

It is generally considered to be poor forum ettique to introduce
discussion/comment from another forum a poster (here) has
made... I made an exception in your case as I did with @omnimirage
as the information elsewhere enhanced the message here (BMA).
Doing this builds a risk an Admin might take exception to the use, I
trust you can appreciate my bending the rules a tad?

Close that slider... now.
It is mid30s+ here, all colonys have solid BBs, that rig you have will
be fine. The bees are not going to build on the frames with an open
bottom.
All @iddee and much of what @Acebird is putting to you finds
good reason in practise, however you are dealing with a relatively
small colony in introducing a huge change, less is best and what
you have done thusfar is enough for now. August is the time to do
more.
For now, change the entrance as per my earlier advice and stop
stop the pheromone leak which is distracting both the bees and
yourself.

Bill

[eltalia]

""At the moment they appear to be continuing to live primarily in the Parrot Box & also clustering to the underside of the new hive lid, where the 2 holes I made connect.""

This is what concerns me, Bill. How are they clustering there if there are frames in the box?

As I know you know bees are relucant to leave brood, and they take the shortest
- read efficient - path to service brood. Brood+Queen equals massive pheromone.
Way more powerful than the installed GPS, if it is sensed bees will follow pheromone
first, we (b'keeps) use this behaviour in many practices around managing colonys.
Those bees are clustering in chasing the trail, I'll bet they are busy chewing wood
or whatever to gain access to the brood whilst the ground crew takes the long way
around in using the set entrance.

Off topic - yet relevant to your question - this pheromone thing, like awareness of
the impact, is another factor in USA trapout methods which is askew. But that is
another story for another day :)

Bill

[Acebird]

Ace, we don't know how much space is under the comb in the parrot box. There MAY be enough for 50 lb. of sugar honey. Also, he is entering fall. They aren't going to draw comb until spring, if he has 4 seasons in his area. I would also have a ""bee space"" between the boxes so they didn't lock them together with propolis or fill with comb and drone cells or honey.

I agree again we don't know how close the comb is to the bottom of the parrot box until he cuts the bottom off.  Then he can cut it again to make it close and even shave some of the comb off that might be empty.

I looked up Melbourn to check on the climate.  He doesn't really have 4 seasons.  Based I what I found on his climate he might be able to feed most of his fall so that gives him the possibility to draw comb before "winter".
With foundationless comb in the parrot box the bees should create the bee space when they draw to the top bars in the Lang.  They might propolise the parrot box to the top of the bars but I don't see that as a hard thing to break loose.

[iddee]

You may be right there. I think we have given him what we can. I'm going to let Bill take it from here. He's in that neighborhood.

[eltalia]

He doesn't really have 4 seasons.

Correct... Melbornia has just three seasons, and usually in
any single day;
bl00dy cold
bl00dy hot
bl00dy miserable
... the latter when it is either of the preceding two AND raining
as well. Tis a game man that ventures out without an umbrella
or Drizabone tucked under his arm.

There is just some stuph gUUgle.com cannot deliver, Brian.

Bill