This is the exchange of emails between myself and Dr. James Ellis (Jamie) .
Assistant Professor of Entomology
Honey Bee Research and Extension Laboratory
Department of Entomology and Nematology
University of FloridaI have done some editing to the emails to removes headers and discussion
topics that do not pertain to the conversation on AHB in South Florida.
This is the conversation over six emails.
I want it clearly understood while I do not agree with everything Jamie
says, however he has a Phd, great credentials, and more experience than
I do to back him up. So what I want from members is intelligent
questions and statements so that I can further address this matter. Most
scientist are open to well founded ideas so be smart. And ask lots of
questions. I do not intend to put Jamie on the defensive so I will feed
the trolls to the mods.
Brendhan The action plan for Florida on dealing with the AHB
issue states in it:
"News reports of mass stinging attacks will
promote concern and in some cases panic and anxiety, and cause citizens
to demand responsible agencies and organizations to take action to help
insure their safety. We anticipate increased pressure from the public to
ban beekeeping in urban and suburban areas. This action would be
counter-productive. Beekeepers maintaining managed colonies of domestic
European bees are our best defense against an area becoming saturated
with AHB. These managed bees are filling an ecological niche that would
soon be occupied by less desirable colonies if it were vacant. " http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/plantinsp/apiary/ahbgroup/actionplan.doc Yet in a newspaper article for southwest Florida, Dr. Jamie Ellis is
quoted as saying it would be better to remove a potential AHB hive .
http://www.sun-herald.com/Newsstory.cfm?pubdate=030907&story=tp1ch6.htm&folder=NewsArchive2 Jamie These two stories are not at odds with one another. We
fully recommend NOT banning beekeeping (as outlined by Jerry's FDACS
information) but we DO recommend removing all FERAL colonies of bees (as
I was quoted as saying) that are in close proximity to the public. The
two are not at odds. Jerry, others, and I have been 'preaching' hard
that managed bee colonies are not the problem. We only need to remove
feral colonies that are a direct threat to people, those that show up in
neighborhoods, water meters, etc. We refer to these bees as 'nuisance'
bees.
PCO stands for pest control operator FDACS stands for Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer ServicesBrendhan I would be very interested in what the DNA test are on
that hive .
Jamie We likely will never know what the colony is. Again, at
this point it doesn't really matter. It was a feral colony located close
to people and it needed to be removed. It truly pains me to say that; I
hate killing bees (I REALLY hate killing bees!). But we simply can't
tell what the bees are unless we have a sample. Then, it may take 3+
weeks to do the analysis. FDACS receives numerous samples and everyone
who sends a sample considers their own sample a priority. So you can see
the dilemma we are in here. By the time bees are adequately sampled and
determined to be African or European, they could have attacked and
killed someone. I hope you understand the position in which we find
ourselves.
The State of Florida does 2 tests on it's bees. Test #1 is called
morphometrics. It determines AHB based on measurements of the bee. Test
2 is a mitochondrial DNA test which can determine the maternal side of
the bee. I will post more on this in another topic at a later timeBrendhan In regards to the feral colonies. I hold a slightly
different point of view. Feral colonies are not bad. Not all feral
colonies are AHB. And yes AHB are here to stay. And dealing with AHB is
very important issue. However every time we remove a feral colony we
create a vacuum that leaves an opening for the frequent swarming AHB to
occupy. it is far easier in my opinion for AHB to move into a void vs
trying to take over a weak colony.
I understand that this point of view is not the accepted practices of
dealing with ferals but I see no reason to kill good bees. If a swarm
removal or cut out is all that is needed to make a property owner happy
I would rather do that. And make the bees useful and productive. If we
can keep friendly bees in that area that would be the best situation.
I have been doing cut outs for almost two years now. Bees can be
aggressive without being AHB. The worst attack I ever got was when I
dropped a hive. Second worse was in dealing with a hive that was
queenless. I understand that those are not AHB hives but over 500
stingers in my clothes say it was an unpleasant experience. I agree that
aggressive hives feral or not are of no benefit to anyone. Aggressive
hives either get requeened or dealt with in other ways.
The problem I am seeing is that the media screams AHB every time a swarm
is removed even if the hive tests negative. This pattern from the media
and from people going out and giving AHB lectures does nothing more than
reinforce the fear that exists. We do not encourage people to become
even hobbiest beekeepers when all they hear is Killer Bees.
I want people to understand the dangers of AHBs but I don't want to
discourage them from being interested in beekeeping.
Also AHBs are raised by beekeepers in other parts of the world and the
southwest United States.. The techniques to deal with them exist. if the
AHB spread is going to continue. I would like to see what can be done to
train beekeepers on how to handle them as pollinators and honey
producers.
I realize that this is at odds with many of the stands of the
cooperative extension and the dept. of Agriculture but when at the South
Florida fair this year the most common question asked about our
observation hive was "Are those Africanized bees?" I believe that the
status quo might need to change.
Jamie You raise a good point about 'keeping' Af bees. That can be
done. I lived in South Africa for 3 years and worked with this bee all
the time. I have a tremendous amount of first-hand experience with the
bee. The problem is not the beekeepers can't manage the bees, it's the
road worker cutting the ditch close to your colonies, or your neighbor
cutting his/her grass, etc. The southwest is not nearly as populated as
FL (neither do they 'keep' Af bees intentionally). We are running out of
land in FL and places to keep colonies are becoming scarce. You can't
manage Af bees close to people. It is a safety and liability issue
(despite that it can be done).
It truly is a tough stance to take but my position is borne out of
experience (both mine and that of others). For some reason, our message
seems to be very unpopular to beekeepers and that is not our intention
at all. I want to make a point to say that EVERY TIME we discuss AHBs,
we discuss the beneficial aspects of honey bees. The press prints what
they want. I don't believe peoples' idea of bees is tarnishing. The fact
that they ask you 'are those Africanized bees' when you are at the fair
means that they recognize there is another, 'good' bee. And hey, that
allows you to jump in and tell them the difference. Despite how it may
seem, we work hard to protect FL citizens and FL beekeepers. To be fair,
I'm one of both.
I did not mean to infer that all feral colonies are bad. Neither do I
mean to infer that feral Af bee colonies are bad. To be honest, African
bees probably will be more helpful in instances of pollinator decline
than harmful in instances of attack. Yet, that doesn't absolve us from
protecting people and removing 'problem' feral colonies from places
people frequent is not overreacting.
You are correct when you suggest that not all feral colonies are AHB.
However, out of all of the bee samples taken from feral bee colonies in
Southern Florida in 2006, 80% were AHBs. That means 8 out of every 10
wild colonies that are in South Florida are Af bees! This number will
grow over the next few years to where 'almost' all feral colonies will
be AHBs.
Brendhan When (please give year) can we expect 95% or better AHB
infestation of feral colonies in south Florida? Approx imitations are
acceptable. Please include margin of error.
Jamie I would not dare to venture a guess. It is safe to say that
percentage will increase (it has doubled steadily every year since
2002). This is not surprising at all considering how amazing the African
bee truly is.
You mention the 'ecological vacuum' that many people make reference to
when discussing AHB. In reality, removing a handful of feral colonies
that are in problem areas will do very little invite or even discourage
more bees from moving into an area. You are correct, removing an AHB
colony from a site opens that site to another swarming colony. However,
this will not be the case if the bee remover does his/her job to close
off the site once the bees are removed. Another point to consider, it
really doesn't matter if we remove one nesting site by blocking it off,
there are enough nesting sites out there to where AHBs will just go
somewhere else. So, I think that removing a colony will have very little
impact on more AHBs moving into an area.
Again, I want to stress that it pains me to suggest we kill 'perfectly
good bees'. You have to remember though, there is no easy way to tell
what is and is not a 'perfectly good bee'. In my opinion as a scientist,
all bees are perfectly good and I really believe that. As someone who
has to protect 19 million FL residents, any feral bee colony that nests
close to locations where humans frequent must be considered for
eradication. I know this sounds harsh but consider this: 50% of all AHB
attacks on humans occurred when the victim knew the nest was there for
some time but did nothing about it! That means 50% of all AHB attacks on
people are 100% preventable! I've seen the bee. I know what it can do.
We've not seen it live up to its potential here yet.
Another thing I want to point out in this regard..........far fewer
nests are removed from properties than actually exist in the wild. For
example, AHB's saturate an area once they become established. Removing 1
or 2 problem colonies around a person's home will do little to the
thousands of colonies left in the wild and safely away from people.
Beekeepers always make the argument that they can remove swarms or cut
out nests and use the 'good bees'. What they don't understand is that
(1) if the colony is AHB, then the beekeeper is taking AHB drones to
his/her apiary to mate with his/her virgin Euro queens even if he finds
the AHB queen in the colony and kills her (the beekeeper is only slowing
the problem by killing the queen) (2) what if the beekeeper can't find
the queen (which is VERY common), (3) what if the swarm or colony is a
very defensive AHB colony and something goes wrong during the removal?
Did the beekeeper look to make sure the neighbor's dog is not chained?
Did they make sure the kids just down the road were not outside playing?
How about the person sunbathing by the pool next door?
I hope you see where I am going with this. I am happy that you have not
run into a 'hot' AHB colony in your 2 years of swarm removal. As AHBs
saturate the area more, you may eventually hit a 'hot' colony and that's
when people can get hurt (or killed?). I agree that bees can bee
'aggressive' (I prefer the term 'defensive', 'aggressive' implies they
hunt people) without being AHB. That is more an exception rather than
the rule though. It is equally true to say that AHB can be the gentlest
bees you will ever work. But in reality they can be quite defensive and
many people can get hurt or killed if something goes wrong.
To be honest, few people will ever be attacked by bees, and then few of
those attacks will be caused by AHBs. The catch is, we all must do what
we can to save lives. Neither I nor my colleagues have problems with
managed Euro colonies (if the beekeeper is following BMPs - as I believe
Jerry sent to you). We just never can know about what type of bee a
feral bee is unless someone samples the bees. You think the press is
giving bees a bad rap now. What do you think they would do if someone
botched a removal and an innocent citizen was killed? We are doing
everything we can to keep that from happening.
The BMP is the Beekeeper Management Practice sheet. All registered
beekeepers in Florida are required to sign it. You may view it athttp://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/plantinsp/apiary/bmp_ehb.docBrendhanIn removal of feral hives, I remove all comb including
scraping as much as I can. It is up to the homeowner to repair any
openings left behind by a proper contractor. I however try to leave a
swarm trap in the areas. I have very good results with this method also
it is much easier to remove bees from a swarm trap than a roof sophet.
You note how 50% of AHB attacks are 100% preventable. I am not sure I
agree with that because it assumes a hive has been AHB from the moment
it established it's presence. I know that is splitting hairs. However
for me I am just as happy with homeowner who decides the bees in the
sophet of his back patio can stay as I am when I ask to remove them and
give them a good home. As a rough test if you can run a mower or
weedwacker without getting bees worked up then you are not in bad shape.
Not a true AHB test but a nice way to see how aggressive the bees are.
Jamie My comments were based on data out of the southwestern US
where 50% of all AHB attacks happen when people knew the colonies were
there for some time. You are right, they might not have 'started' AHB 6
months ago. However, can you really make the argument they can be left
until they start to turn defensive? People usually discover this the
hard way. The average person does not know that, in general, new swarms
replace their old queen within months of establishing their home. When
she is replaced, her virgin daughter mates with drones in the area. If
80% of these drones are AHB drones, the colony quickly becomes
'Africanized' in fewer than 6 months. Even if we sampled the bees early
on and determined them to be the 'good' Euro bees, they are virtually
'destined' to become AHBs when the area is saturated with AHBs. Loosing
someone is a difficult way to verify this truth.
Brendhan I do agree with you that my removal of colonies from
homes doesn't make a dent in the feral population
Statewide.
However South Florida's tri county area has more bee removers and
exterminators than it has bee keepers. I would be interested in finding
out how many hives are professionally removed in Palm Beach, Broward,
and Dade counties each year. I am willing to harbor an uneducated guess
that in South Florida it does have an impact. Also as development
continues in South Florida which is quite extensive. Rural areas are
becoming more and more scarce. In areas like east cost areas on the east
side of I-95 from Miami to Jupiter you can barely see trees anymore. So
as a rough guess bees in these areas are hanging out in the woods. Also
if the AHBs are in the woods away from people than the level of threat
is greatly reduced.
Jamie I also would love to see how many colonies are removed per
year in S. Florida. Estimates from S. America is that you can have more
than 300 feral bee nests per square mile. If this is the case, then the
PCO's would need to be removing hundreds (maybe thousands) of colonies
before they even addressed 1% of all of the feral colonies. I don't
worry much about the bees 'in the wild', except perhaps because of the
occasional hiker or outdoor worker. Like I told you, just this week I
counted 10 feral bee colonies in power poles down 1 stretch of 1 rd on 1
side of the rd for 1/2 a mile (Ft. Pierce). That is quite a high density
of colonies.
Brendhan I remember the BMP once he(Jerry Hayes) sent me a copy
of it. The acronym through me for a bit. The BMP is nice. However, my
problem is that most production queens are raised in places that use a
lot of chemicals. My biggest problems with disease and queens have been
from packages. The feral colonies seem in my observation to be stronger
and less disease ridden right now than what I am seeing in package bees.
I realize that is not scientific but I have gotten tired of throwing
money away on items from Hawaii, Texas, Georgia, and New Jersey for
stuff that isn't worth the price. The price of hives and queens has gone
up just in the two years I have been doing this. I can't imagine how
pollinators are going to affect the price trying to replace CCD loses.
Replacing unmarked queens every six months borders on the ridiculous in
my eyes. I understand the point but, the cost becomes outrageous and as
I stated before I am no longer impressed by "production queens." I know
that is a slightly off mentality with the AHB issue, but I don't have a
Varroa problem or a small hive beetle problem and I don't have
aggressive bees. However in order to be fair, since the testing for AHB
is free. I will be sending samples in for testing. I cannot wait to see
the results.
Jamie You are correct again, today's production queens can be
poor. However, many people are perfectly satisfied with the queens they
purchase. I've raised my own queens in the past to avoid this problem (a
practice I stopped once I arrived in FL). One must just find a couple of
queen breeders whose product satisfies them. With the hundreds (or
more?) of queen breeders out there, you should be able to find a handful
whose product you like. If not, Jerry's office produces a BMPs for queen
production in Florida. If you follow it, you should be able to produce
your own queens.
Replacing unmarked queens every 6 months is a financial drain. But
remember, they don't have to be replaced unless they are unclipped
and/or unmarked. Replacing queens from an unknown source is the only way
to 'be sure' that you don't have Africanized bees (if one can be sure).
I think about it this way, replacing unmarked queens with known-source
European queens is cheaper than being sued for keeping Af bees that
attacked someone. The flipside to this (as you well state) is where do
you get cheap, quality queens? You just have to experiment and find some
that work for you.
Brendhan I don't want to seem antagonistic. I want to see what
can be done to beekeeping back in a more positive limelight with people.
Nothing takes care of AHBs like having lots of backyard hives throwing
out EHB drones to go and mate with a AHB queen on a mating flight.
I think the bigger problem than AHB is the public relations nightmare we
are having with the general public and the media. I think being stung by
an aggressive AHB hive is easier to deal with and less painful than
dealing with a poison pen and a reporter trying to justify their job. I
want the PBCbeekeeprs to help in this. I want to see more members join
whether they have an interest in backyard beekeeping or an dream of
having a thousand hive they move from one place to another.
Jamie I could not agree more.....I want more and more people to
take up beekeeping. I believe they can and that they should. My goal
while here is to see that FL has more beekeepers when I leave (retire)
than when I arrived. But to be honest, I don't think the media's scare
tactics discourages would-be beekeepers from taking up beekeeping. I do,
however, think that they do reinforce public fears needlessly. We can't
change what they write, but we can show the public that we are doing (1)
everything we can to protect them from AHB while (2) helping foster the
growth and development of our important bee industry.
With all that said, have you followed all of the 'good' press that we've
been doing with bees? Read any of the CCD articles and you will see that
the same group of people working hard to minimize AHB damage is working
hard to tell people that we need honey bees. The public is responding
positively. I am quite optimistic that the right things are being said.
You ask a good question...how does one deal with the media? I can tell
you from experience, you can talk with them for 1 hour about the
benefits....they want to print the attacks. How do you counter this?
Write articles for your local papers. Call your regional papers and let
them come out and do a story on your bees. Be vocal. Write letters to
the editors (being very careful not to sound hard-hearted). Show up at
fairs (which it sounds like you are doing), sponsor honey days (NEFBA
did a very good one late last year), etc. People do notice so don't get
discouraged.
Brendhan I disagree with you on the effect of media scare tactics
on would be beekeepers. Go find out how many Florida boy scouts even
bother to pursue the beekeeping merit badge. You may be disappointed. I
agree with you completely on the rest of your comment that we need to
show the public what we are doing. I just find fighting the 6:00 news
report on firefighters being called out to train or deal with a beehive
hard to battle.
Jamie Has this gone up? Down? Or stayed the same? How about
asking how many people take up beekeeping every year? That remains
constant (if not increasing). You could also make the argument that boy
scouts increasingly caters to city youth. And in today's 'sterile'
cities, beekeeping may be frowned upon by scout parents. You are right,
we have made it to the point we are splitting hairs. One could argue
this point either way. For every person AHBs discourage from taking up
beekeeping, I believe there are 2 people in their ranks who can't wait
to begin.
Brendhan If the issue is that you can raise AHBs and that AHBs
are going to sweep over areas in Florida in the upcoming years. And we
are running out of space. Trying to fight the AHB infestation becomes an
exercise in futility in my opinion (not scientifically based). I agree
that the beekeeper isn't the problem the backhoe doing roadwork is. That
is an excellent point that I will have to look into further. Maybe
beekeepers should keep a weed whacker as a standard tool. The black flag
aggression test is nice but the weed whacker high pitched whine would
probably be better. I believe AHB can be breeded to a more docile state
like they are doing in Brazil. I raise nice bees but I won't do it in
shorts and a tank top and those guys do.
JamieYou are right, that's why we are not fighting AHB
infestation!!!! We are only removing potentially problematic colonies.
Quite a difference between the two.
That said, AHBs have not discouraged beekeeping in the Southwest, even
with the news media.
Brendhan Maybe in order to deal with AHB we can import the lazy
cape bee. I think that would make the AHB problem and CCD almost
insignificant. ;) (might make standard honeybees insignificant also)
Jamie Cape bees are beautiful. I do hope, however, that they
never make it to the US. An amazing bee, biologically.
This article is posted with Jamie's knowledge.
Sincerely,
Brendhan