Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: MrILoveTheAnts on March 24, 2010, 04:08:01 pm
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Yet another pointless news story about CCD has come out today basically quoting people and not answering anything. It's barely worth reading in my opinion but if you're interested http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100324/ap_on_sc/us_food_and_farm_disappearing_beesclick here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100324/ap_on_sc/us_food_and_farm_disappearing_bees).
Here is a YouTube Video that was posted last summer that clearly shows corn sprayed with neonicotinoids kills the foraging bees of a hive. Thus opening the door to all other virus problems seen in unhealthy hives. The reason there are almost no mites in the hive is there are no foraging bees to bring them in! At the very least could someone in the US try to recreate their finding, Thank you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Nsn4KvjwM# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Nsn4KvjwM#)
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The video just confirms that the liquid on the corn is an effective insecticide. And when you feed an insecticide to an insect, it kills it. Not a very scientific video... It doesn't prove that is what is killing colonies anywhere.
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Guttation is when the plant naturally sweats out sweet liquid. I know it's a French video but the plants obviously weren't sprayed recently otherwise they'd be covered in dew. You see the tips of the leaves are where the substance comes out.
Also before someone mentions it. There are two pots of corn, one that was sprayed and one that wasn't. You can make this out at 1:05 of the video.
Because it isn't that great of a video is why I'd like someone in the US to try and recreate the experimental.
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I might be missing something here, but . . .
1. you spray a plant with poison
2. You take some "dew" secreted by the plant, which obviously has poison on it.
3. You feed it to the bees.
4 They die.
Help me out here. Why is that suprising?
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I might be missing something here, but . . .
1. you spray a plant with poison
2. You take some "dew" secreted by the plant, which obviously has poison on it.
3. You feed it to the bees.
4 They die.
Help me out here. Why is that suprising?
Because no one is studying that as a possible cause to the Mysterious CCD. Scientists said well neonicotinoides are not in the nectar or the pollen which bees love but they forget that bees will go for anything sweet flavored. Have you ever had a Soda where a bee flew into it? or a recycling bin full of bees? Hell a social feeder of sugar water?
The poison neonicotinoides is applies to corn (possibly other crops and whatever it drifted onto) and it stays active inside the plant for 9 months! Now it's not in the nectar or pollen which is good, But bees don't always go to flowers! Smash open a watermelon and tell me it won't become covered in bees on a nice day. So the poison is present in the sap and guttation of the plant.
It's not a virus that, we're finding in the dead and unhealthy bees that are in the gasp UnHealthy Hive. Try not eating anything for a few days and see how healthy your immune system is.
Mites shouldn't even be considered part of the issue because if they were present before CCD happened they'll be running rampant. If they weren't present before CCD then is shouldn't be surprising that they're not in the hive because all of the foraging bees probably died before returning to the hive.
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Bees will collect dew, or any liquid substance from "any" plant.
As corn is not one of the top crops that bees visit why rack your brain over it.
They are going to spray what they are going to where they are going to. "Who" is going to fix that?
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Bees will collect dew, or any liquid substance from "any" plant.
As corn is not one of the top crops that bees visit why rack your brain over it.
They are going to spray what they are going to where they are going to. "Who" is going to fix that?
They could be spraying pesticides that are bee friendly like they used to! Instead of something that turns the plant into a deadly toxin for 9 months. Unless you're growing pest ridden apples who needs a pesticide that lasts 9 months.
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Yah know this is basically a murder mystery without a corps. Everyone is investigating why the house is dirty but no one cares where the bodies are.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/27/business/27bees.html?_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/27/business/27bees.html?_r=1)
There you go...I like the caption for the picture! ....and tell me why they lost half the hives?
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From the NY Times article...
Isaias Corona of Bradshaw Honey Farm, near Visalia, Calif., putting corn syrup — bee food — into hives. The farm has lost about half its bees.
And here I thought honey was bee food. Silly me.
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They are going to spray what they are going to where they are going to. "Who" is going to fix that?
The USDA and FDA are supposed to... But when they allow Bayer and other major insecticide and pesticide producers to "grease their palms" and slip chemicals through the back door of the approval process with known bee killing properties, it is impossible to stop.
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Because no one is studying that as a possible cause to the Mysterious CCD. Scientists said well neonicotinoides are not in the nectar or the pollen which bees love but they forget that bees will go for anything sweet flavored.
this is not a true statement. no one is studying that YOU know of...
Jody Johnson is a doctoral candidate at the University of Maryland, Baltimore in the department of Toxicology. She is studying the sublethal effects of several pesticides on honey bees at the USDA Bee Research Lab in Beltsville under the mentorship of Dr. Jeff Pettis. Two imidacloprid studies, one with Dr. Galen Dively at the University of Maryland College Park on field based hives and one with Animal Plant Health Inspection Services (APHIS) in New York City and Worcester, MA on imidacloprid expression in red maple flowers and leaves, are central to her research. Other smaller studies have included work investigating the effects of fluvalinate (Apistan), chlorothalonil, and coumaphos (CheckMite+) on honey bee health.
http://161.58.48.157/honeyindustry/reports/research2009-8.asp (http://161.58.48.157/honeyindustry/reports/research2009-8.asp)
http://www.pollinator.org/pdfs/2010%20FINAL%20Honey%20Bee%20Health%20Release%20031510.pdf (http://www.pollinator.org/pdfs/2010%20FINAL%20Honey%20Bee%20Health%20Release%20031510.pdf)
she is currently working on a water quality study to see what is in the possible water sources of the honey bee.
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"Researchers say the bees are presumably dying in the fields, perhaps becoming exhausted..." (somewhere around paragraph 6)
- this is from the article Ollie posted o.k. so this was a new york times author - presumably someone who thinks trees only grow in jumbo pots. but exhausted bees? :lau: without some outside influence? (like pesticide or illness) - The article itself suggests exhaustion as a primary factor. :-\ yeah, ok city slicker.
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Some folks are looking at pesticides. They are looking in the wax,which is like a sponge that sops up anything the bees have on their feet or in the pollen/nectar they store in the hive.
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/pdfs/Cost-sharing.pdf (http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/pdfs/Cost-sharing.pdf)
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/powerpoints/Pesticides-pollination0310.ppt (http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/powerpoints/Pesticides-pollination0310.ppt)
One page of ppt presentation:
Outcomes of Honey Bee Pesticide Analysis
No “commodity” has had as many detections at such high amounts in so few samples over such a short time as has bee pollen
Highest detections were in-house miticides, fluvalinate and coumaphos, but well over 100 other pesticides and metabolites found
Pyrethroids dominate: known to impact foraging behavior,
No individual chemical is likely to explain CCD
Systemic or other fungicides occur at levels that may synergize with pyrethroids, organophosphates or neonicotinoids.
Role of pesticides and diseases like IAPV in CCD remains to be reconstituted in lab bioassays at relevant doses
Impacts of multiple pesticide residues in bee food most likely will be via synergistic interactions at sublethal levels on key behaviors/physiology
My thoughts:
camaphous and fluvalinate were dumped in many hives as varroa treatment. Beekeepers have contributed to being part of the problem it seems.
Check-mite plus has specific warnings to handle it with gloves as it gets absorbed through the skin and affects the nervous system
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Ok where does it say anyone is studying plants that "Guttation" (whatever the past tents of that word is) and insecticides?
The treated plants bleed out the insecticide, the bees basically drink this sugar water tainted with insecticide, and thus all the foraging bees of a hive "mysteriously" die. I could not be saying this more simply.
Like think about the definition of what CCD is for a moment. Foraging bees "mysteriously" vanish, and the hive looks unhealthy. If we eliminate the problem of foraging bees vanishing does CCD still happen? Think about this for a moment.
I'm pointing out how an insecticide that remains active in a plant for 9 months can kill the foraging bees of a hive. Suddenly that on that warm day where any bee could use a drink that field of corn with glistening droplets of sugar water all over the leaves (guttation) looks like a likely suspect. It's quite a mystery isn't it?
All of these chemicals they're finding in the hives wax and pollen isn't that surprising at all. These are mostly commercial hives which travel around the country and encounter god knows what.
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Buzzbees comments are the best I've heard so far.
No single chemical or pesticides have been found to be the problem. In fact, some of the ones targeted, and those banned in France and other countries, have been found at ANY level, in only about 30% of CCD samples. Some of the other chemicals, and the ones beekeepers have placed in the hives themselves, have been found at much higher percentages of the hives. Fluvalinate, being the most toxic.
It seems that particular fungicides, tested and shown to be safe for bees unto themselves, has drastic kill rates, when mixed with other chemicals. These previously safe fungicides are being found to be the the "x-factor" and chasing down and eliminating one chemical as they are trying to do, may be in vane, since another chemical may just fill in for the job. So this could be a compounding problem that results in many chemicals being the "last straw" allowing this to take place.
It seems that research is about where many beekeepers thoughts were at least two or three years ago. That it is the combination of chemicals, probably with suppressed immune systems, poor nutrition, that allow other diseases and a complete crash of the bees immune system and resulting CCD.
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Buzzbees comments are the best I've heard so far.
No single chemical or pesticides have been found to be the problem. In fact, some of the ones targeted, and those banned in France and other countries, have been found at ANY level, in only about 30% of CCD samples. Some of the other chemicals, and the ones beekeepers have placed in the hives themselves, have been found at much higher percentages of the hives. Fluvalinate, being the most toxic.
It seems that particular fungicides, tested and shown to be safe for bees unto themselves, has drastic kill rates, when mixed with other chemicals. These previously safe fungicides are being found to be the the "x-factor" and chasing down and eliminating one chemical as they are trying to do, may be in vane, since another chemical may just fill in for the job. So this could be a compounding problem that results in many chemicals being the "last straw" allowing this to take place.
It seems that research is about where many beekeepers thoughts were at least two or three years ago. That it is the combination of chemicals, probably with suppressed immune systems, poor nutrition, that allow other diseases and a complete crash of the bees immune system and resulting CCD.
This has been my belief. Many negative factors " all at once " would be detrimental to any living organism. We can control many of those factors ourselves as competent beekeepers, but eliminating the chemicals ( pesticides, fungicides, and other poisons) from our environment is more than half the battle.
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Once again my comments are getting pushed to the side as if finding out how all of the foraging members of a hive could up and die. As if all the foraging members of a hive dying has nothing to do with CCD.
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Once again my comments are getting pushed to the side as if finding out how all of the foraging members of a hive could up and die. As if all the foraging members of a hive dying has nothing to do with CCD.
Not really, I agree the CCD Hype is tiresome, I for one do not pay attention to it anymore.
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http://news.discovery.com/animals/honeybee-mite-sniffers-colony.html (http://news.discovery.com/animals/honeybee-mite-sniffers-colony.html)
This story has a video with it and sums up how scientist are NOT researching insecticides. Why? I don't know.
Edit: The video for this article implies that CCD is when adult foraging bees abandon the brood of the nest... which is an odd statement because the young bees are the ones taking care of the brood. The same young bees that were supposidly effected by this "disease" when, apparently, a mite bit them in the brood stage.
Considering the honey bee genome was only just decoded last year is it any surprise that we're just now discovering new disease with this species? Disease that quite easily could have nothing to do with CCD and as said by the people studying CCD are can be found in any hive.
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They could be spraying pesticides that are bee friendly like they used to! Instead of something that turns the plant into a deadly toxin for 9 months.
It sounds a bit silly to think that there are pesticides that are "bee friendly." They may be able to tolerate some of them more than others, but certainly there isn't a pesticide out there that is "friendly" to the bees.
Seriously, if there is a lack of study on something that you find important... get out there and let someone know and maybe something could happen. I'm sure there are tons of Grad. and PhD. students that need projects and one of them may just take on your idea.
I don't see a big reason to dwell on something that you can't control. For now just take care of your own hives and control what YOU force on them and for all the things you can't control... "que sera sera"
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If you aren't finding the corpses I guess you have to look at their environment. just because you haven't found the studies does not mean they are not being done. If you are so tired of it why do you bring it up? I really do not think there is a conspiracy theory going on.
A stated earlier bees don't spend a lot of their time on soy and corn.These are the primary crops for these insecticides.
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I had a video until I had to change operating systems of the bees harvesting the pollen on the corn. It was quite loud with bees, and you couldn't look at a corn tassel without 2 or more bees working it. I don't bother with pesticides myself; but I can confirm that, for whatever their reason, they find corn pollen very appealing.
edit: I guess the question for that is: Do CCD incidents have their highest frequency at the same time frame the plants in question are pollinating the most - or is CCD seasonally random?
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Two winters ago I lost 7 out of 12 colonies. There is no corn grown within miles of me. I don't even grow it in my garden. If I did I would plane the old kind.
NEXT,
The article on CBS I pulled up said that 121 pesticides were found in test. Not that it meant all those was found in one colony. There are so many things that float around in the air, I think regardless of where you live you will get some effects. There is not a lot of agriculture around where I live for miles. Just forest land.
Not even half doz. gardens within bee flights. Most of those don't use sprays or powders.
I would expect they would find a lot of things in colonies that are kept in heavy agriculture areas.
Add the medication the beekeeper uses, Which is none for me in the past 2 years.
I was down to 4 colonies last spring. Got back up to 7 during the growing season last year. Now back down to two. I think the ones I lost this past winter was due to hive beetles. Poor management on my part for that.
I am not going to give up. I have two good colonies that are growing and being treated for hive beetles with the non chemical method. I am going to try to get some honey from the Tulip Poplar season then I am going to try to rear some managed queens and make a couple splits.
I do plan on buying one nuke. Then I'll wait and see what this Fall/winter holds in store for me and my Bees.
If I have to buy a couple nukes next spring I will. :)doak
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Read from page 9 on. they have looked:
http://maarec.psu.edu/pressReleases/FallDwindleUpdate0107.pdf (http://maarec.psu.edu/pressReleases/FallDwindleUpdate0107.pdf)
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It sounds a bit silly to think that there are pesticides that are "bee friendly." They may be able to tolerate some of them more than others, but certainly there isn't a pesticide out there that is "friendly" to the bees.
By bee friendly I mean they're only sprayed when the crop is not in flower. When a pesticide is active for 9 months the farmer might as well be bathing his plants in the stuff daily for the entire growing season.
Seriously, if there is a lack of study on something that you find important... get out there and let someone know and maybe something could happen. I'm sure there are tons of Grad. and PhD. students that need projects and one of them may just take on your idea.
That was kind of why I posted this, here, on the internet, where people from around the world can read things.
I don't see a big reason to dwell on something that you can't control. For now just take care of your own hives and control what YOU force on them and for all the things you can't control... "que sera sera"
Once again everyone seems to be missing the point. I'm happy to read in the link provided by BuzzBee that we're making progress but I still don't read what I want to hear. I haven't read it all yet but once again they say they're taking samples from the hive... which is what I've been complaining about this whole time.
I want someone to post here saying YES they understand that neonicotinoides could be the culprit. I seriously question why beekeepers tolerate this class of insecticide if it's active for 9 months or however long. Especially because the scientists seem to think that combined with a fungicide could cause CCD. Why haven't we banned one or the other? Why aren't we boycotting pollination services to farmers who use neonicotinoides? As far as I'm concerned if they're using this they may as well be spraying their crop daily with any other product.
Guttation is very common among plants. It's not just corn doing it. This is the plant pushing out, basically, sugar water that's now tainted with an insecticide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttation)
At the very least we should be calling for Neonicotinoides to be prohibited from crops that guttat, sweat out liquid. THEN we would be removing one of the key factors in CCD!
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Neonicatinoids are a factor. Not the only cause.
There are a lot of theories on CCD
Here is yours from March 3,2007:
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With Colony Collapse Disorder the adult bees can't find their way home. Something is screwing around with their internal compus. Specifically something in the fall time. What are beekeepers doing in the fall? Adding and removing strips to combat mites. And I'm assuming newer formulas are more likely to be bought by commercial bee farmers who seem most effected by this."
Until we are sure what we are after,whether it be chemical,viral,or possibly some natural cause,we can't just say this has to go,that has to go and everything must go.
Our government ,gee i hate that word anymore, still does not advocate using oxalic acid to combat mites in the beehive.
Until there are more cost effective ways to treat mites on a commercial basis,of which oxalic is very inexpensive,we will continue to see cumalative effects of chemicals in the hive introduced by the beekeeper themselves.
An underlying cause many time seems to be a previous stress period such as moving,poor diet from a mono crop such as blueberries which is very poor for bee nutrition.Extended bad weather can also bee another colony stress factor when corn syrup and sugar are added.We at this time are keeping bees alive that would most likely have died because of lack of food. Is this perpetuating a bad set of genetics?
It very well could be. We have tried to ensure survival of even very sick bees over time just to keep the numbers and maybe inadvertently created bees that are in no way equipped for survival without intervention.
Do we as beekeepers keep getting all of our packages and queens from the same place every year? Are we saturating the gene pool with downline s of the same genetics I don't know.It might be a good idea to start raising bees from feral swarms.
I understand the frustration,which is one reason I try in my beeyard not to be the one adding the lethal final straw.A lot of people stiil think if a little medicine is good,more is better.Most of the time that is not the case.
There may be fifty causes,so I don't think removing one is going to be the magic pill.
For the home and smaller beekeepers,I say use the IPM,dust with sugar,screened bottom boards if you wish. But do your best to keep camaphous and fluvalinates out of your hives.These are highest on the list of concentrations and are the ones beekeepers add themselves.Small beekeepers may in the end be the ones with the answer if they are the ones with bees that have survived.
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Not to change the subject,but if you didn't know about these the symptom is CCD like:
"Whatever the cause of Colony Collapse Disorder, European honeybees face a concrete threat from hordes of killer Asian Hornets, which can wipe out a nest of 30,000 bees "in a couple of hours" in search of larvae on which to feed their young."
That was from this article:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/02/colony_collapse_disorder/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/02/colony_collapse_disorder/)
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Nice research on the old post, Buzzbee! Touche....
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Nice research on the old post, Buzzbee! Touche....
It really wasn't meant as a touche,more of a reflection on just how hard it is to pin this problem to one particular thing.
But rest assured,all beekeepers would like to see it resolved this afternoon.
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Well in the fall time, along with previously mentioned theories, the bees are desperate for food. Maybe they go for guttation more at that time of year.
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Strange. Corn is tasseling and beans flowering when there are boatloads of other things in bloom, at least around here. I haven't ever seen bees on corn or beans (or my sunflowers specially planted for them, for that matter). Also, here in farmland, WI, nothing gets sprayed when in flower. The crops are just too tall by that point. Of course, maybe a special situation here or there would call for plane spraying.
Alfalfa is a different matter. :(
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Mr. I Love The Ants.
You wanted to hear it so here it is.
Yes, That could be ( part) of the culprit.
There is also 1 in another 1000 things that could fall into that category.
Don't to be a noid, but it sounds like you want the answer "you" want, whether it is genuine or not. :)doak
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Guttation
This is a most important topic to beekeepers. This first link tells what guttation is.
Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttation)
Pesticides in guttation water are quite probably the cause of CCD! Other countries have already suggested it. Perhaps a better name for CCD would be Constant Chemical Decimation.
Read what your fellow beekeepers in Atlanta posted.
Metro Atlanta Beekeepers Association
http://www.metroatlantabeekeepers.org/guttation__new_pesticide_concer.htm (http://www.metroatlantabeekeepers.org/guttation__new_pesticide_concer.htm)
This is a great link as well.
Guttation with Imidacloprid, Clothianidin, and Fipronil
This is a great page with three files to look at on the top right of the page. The presentation on guttation is very good but one should read all three.
http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/N&Views/imidacloprid.htm (http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/N&Views/imidacloprid.htm)
It is time for beekeepers to start doing some research and find some things out for themselves.
Do not drink the "We think it is various pathogens and we have no definitive answer for CCD" Kool-aid. These people are scientists and they know better but if you want to know why they are using this smoke screen you will have to ask them.
How about another trip to Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid_effects_on_bee_population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid_effects_on_bee_population)
So here is my question. If we wanted these chemicals tested in the US, who would test? Who would pay for the research? And if the results proved the danger of these chemicals, who would go public with the results?
This goes way beyond just the death of bees, but since we are beekeepers this is a good place to start.
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lets look at this from another view. If we look at GMO's like corn soybeans and Canola or rape seed. all of them are genetic modified. with Pesticides in them each and every cell of the corn plant soy plant and Canola is modifide to have a pesticides in it. from root to grain or seed or bean. its there. whats the cheapest way people out side of the hobbist beek can feed their bees? side liner and up? with HFCS. even when the corn is procesed the pestisides stay in the food product so the bees eat HFCS injest pestisides. they are stressed out from moving mites and what not. they take a swig of HFCS and die. if we stop feeding HFCS. and the bees might bee better.
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the problem with all of these nice theories is that they treat CCD as if it were a new thing. it is not. it is more likely to me that CCD is a combination of things. stress, compromised immune system, exposure to ?.......maybe many things. look at AIDS as a for instance; no one dies from AIDS. they die from one or more disease that get a foothold because the immune system is trashed.
what stresses the bees? dragging them around the country? what we feed, expose them to, treat them with? no one knows. since reports of CCD like occurrences predate many of the things currently blamed for CCD, it is likely more than one thing going on.
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It seems that research is about where many beekeepers thoughts were at least two or three years ago. That it is the combination of chemicals, probably with suppressed immune systems, poor nutrition, that allow other diseases and a complete crash of the bees immune system and resulting CCD.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Seems like most problems in life have many contributors, not just one.
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Why aren't we boycotting pollination services to farmers who use neonicotinoides?
That's a great idea! While it may be difficult to change federal or corporate policy, this is a place beekeepers could make a stand. Of course, they would have to be willing to possibly lose pollination $. It would be a way to make beek voices heard.
My local poison sprayer is my husband, so he knows he's gonna get it if he does anything to harm my bees. In fact, could be they're on to him and the reason he keeps getting dive bombed by them while I am tolerated :D
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Shouldn't this discussion be moved to the CCD Forum?
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University of Nebraska (http://www.extension.org/pages/Bee_Research_at_The_University_of_Nebraska_2010)
This site shows some of the work the UN is doing with Dr. Marion Ellis to study the impact of certain chemicals on bees.
Thought some might find it interesting.
Big Bear