Extractor decisions

[Acebird]

I can crush as strain faster than I can extract...

That is because you have to strain the cappings anyway even if you extract, unless you have more equipment.  I think or I would think that most people extract to save the comb not because it is faster.

[gww]

Ace
I like the crush and strain better but you are correct, in my case, I extract to try and save comb.  I still ruin a lot cause I am foundationless and have not got the process down to a sience yet.  Alot come through ok though also.  The combs do let me fill empty space on small hives that don't quite get full boxes drawn out. 
I find that extracting is a lot harder on the clean up also.  The bees clean the extractor pretty well (hope I never get foul brood in one of my hives though).  You have an uncapping station and then drip some loading the extractor and like you say still have to crush and strain the cappings.  That all make crushing just in a 5 gal bucket look pretty good.
Cheers
gww

[BeeMaster2]

I have done both extracting and crush and strain. I definitely like extracting better. With crush and strain, if there is any pollen in the frame that is not removed, it will make the honey cloudy. The if you extract that same frame, the pollen remains in the frame.
Jim

[Acebird]

Ace
I still ruin a lot cause I am foundationless and have not got the process down to a sience yet. 

Try putting in smaller frames.  If the box is a deep put in mediums.  If the box is medium put in shallows.  Now every frame that you successfully extract without breaking the comb can be filled in at the bottom bar with comb that they draw underneath it.  This will give you a solid comb because they will attach what you did and also draw new comb underneath that bottom bar.  Essentially you are going to have frames with the bottom bar elevated and the comb above the bottom bar all attached.

[gww]

Ace
That would probly work as would on the ones they don't attche the bottom, sticking a little bur comb in it so they do attach it.  I just put a few rubberbands around them and extract and get what I get.  I did a little worse the second extraction cause it was a little cooler and I tried to spin a little faster just to see.  If I go a little slower and a little longer, I probly would be fine.  I am using all mediums and if I cared enough, I would scrape the bottom of the comb or stick a little piece in and get the bees to attach it for me.  I did find that my second extraction with the comb I had extracted once already had more flaw and I think this is partly due to it being past prime comb drawing season.  The bees filled the wet comb really fast and capped it but did not draw them fatter.  I think the same kind of comb in spring would be made fatter and the bees would have worked a little harder at fixing little flaws from my first extraction.  I am just guessing on this because I have not had bees long enough to know for sure but it is what I am thinking.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

If you gave them more comb then they could fill because the flow tapered off they will not waste honey to make wax and draw it out.

[gww]

Ace
Good point.  I will get there.  Lots of small hives right now but sooner or later a few will die and I will have some extra comb.
Cheers
gww

[Joe D]

I have a 55 gal food grade plastic drum that I use for the outer shell of my extractor.  I use medium and shallow honey supers, either will fit is frame slots, at the moment, little after 1 am, can't remember if it holds 8 or 9 frames, as for the variable speed, I got a tread mill motor.  I have got appr. $500 to $600 in it.  Works rather well.   As for putting a smaller frame in a hive, mine will always build the comb on down below the frame.  You do not want to extract in the bee yard.  Mine is fairly close so I will pull the frames and then extract after dark to help keep the bees out of where I extract.  Then I drain the honey out of the extractor into food grade 5 gal buckets and put a lid on each bucket.  Will let it set for a couple of days, the capping will all float to top, skim them off, run the honey through a sieve to catch what got by and have the sieve over a 5 gal paint strainer.  After that you have clean honey ready to bottle.   On the extracting foundationless frames, the first time you extract them do it slow unless they have the comb attached good, by the next time those frames are extracted they will do better.  Hope this helps some new bks.
Good extracting,
Joe D

[chorrylan]

hiya omnimirage.
(declaration of conflict .. I sell extractors in these size ranges myself  having gone through a similar process and not finding what I wanted available)

Perusing the extractors you linked:
 - the ones labelled 'premium' I don't get, particularly what part is 'premium'.  It is a radial but essentially relies on the frames to support each other rather than having frame baskets.
 - the 8 frame 'one' from beekeepinggear is also curious as it's not 'one'. The first three photos are obviously of three different extractor models?

I used until recently an 8 frame radial extractor like this
 https://www.ozbeegear.com.au/8-frame-electric-radial-honey-extractor.html

It is a fairly good size for my purposes as a one-person operation or sometimes with my daughter and only half a dozen hives (and absolutely hating extraction/painting/any-other-messy-job that runs too long and can't be finished in one episode)
The process of
 - clearing one super at a time from hive in my backyard, clearing with a battery powered blower
 - uncapping and holding uncapped frames in a plastic tub
 - extracting
 -  draining from the extractor into 20kg buckets
 - and returning the super to the hives to then grab the next one
operates fairly smoothly with no significant bottlenecks or choke points in the process.

with 40+ hives I'd be seriously tempted to look at a 12 frame unit  like this https://www.ozbeegear.com.au/12-frame-electric-radial-honey-extractor-1.html  to move everything along a bit faster as well as being a bit more robust, solid and hands-free in operation.
(in recently switched to an 8 frame unit that is a smaller prototype/engineering-sample of that 12 frame unit  scaled down to 8 frame size cos someone had to take one for the team and test it out)

Some things to pay attention to:
 - you need to pay attention to and balance all of the bits in the extraction process including yourself. There is no use for instance having a huge extractor you can't keep operating because you can't uncap fast enough
 
 - if you use or might use smaller frame sizes like wsp, manley or ideal pay attention to the frame supports/baskets to see if they will actually support such frames properly. Most of the cheaper ones (including it appears.. the ones you linked)  will hold full depth but the other sizes are poorly supported and/or are unstable

- pay attention to just how solidly they are built and ask around about weak points

- think about what happens if a frame breaks or tips over (see the bit about frame supports above); in a solidly built extractor this will destroy the frame; in a crappy extractor you could end up destroying the extractor although radials are so simple there aren't 'too' many things to break.

- do you need to extract difficult honeys like tea tree or that has started to crystallize in the comb or have a penchant for super soft foundationless comb? If so radials may not be the best option as they have to apply more centrifugal force on the frame to throw the honey than tangential or semi-radial extractors (which in turn are laborious or way more expensive of course )

- I'm not sure what the rules are in Qld but in most Australian states you are not allowed to have honey in the extraction process in contact with materials like galvanised iron so pay attention to such stuff if you make your own; the days of putting an old 44 gallon drum into service as an extractor are over

- only you can determine the relative value and availability of your own time and effort vs capital outlay so what makes sense for you has to make sense to no-one but you. 
eg Beekeeping is a hobby for me and I don't enjoy extracting and cleaning up after extracting so 'wasting' money buying equipment to reduce the time/effort/mess/inconvenience makes sense from the perspective of maximizing the bits I like about my hobby and minimizing the bits I don't.   For some/many people (including myself at other times in my life/hobby/hobbies/bank-balance) that would not be true and they will happily crush and strain a few thousand kg of comb and honey each year and it'll make perfect sense to the only person it really needs to make sense to.

[UrbisAgricola]

Just a couple considerations to add to the mix:

1) if you are working alone and uncapping manually, a Maxant 9-frame extractor is going to spin the honey about as fast as you can uncap it.  Pro: you change up what you do every ten minutes or so.  Con: after the first load you will need to have a plastic tub to put frames as you uncap them until you can reload.

2) If you have someone to help you, they can manually crank an extractor at about the same pace as you uncap and vice-versa. 

3) Just my personal preference, I like to be able to function off the grid when I have to (born of living in a hurricane prone area with power lines above ground).  I bought a manual extractor to start out with and with the intent of it being a fallback when I grew out of it. 

4) Manual extractors are more work but it is really not all that bad.  Truth be told, it has more to do with the fact that we Americans do less and less because or mechanization and things being cheap and it is not so great for our health.

5) you can get a Maxant manual extractor and then later buy the motor for it.  You will pay more than if you just bought it with a motor, but you will still have the manual kit to fall back on if you need it.

[BeeMaster2]

" - if you use or might use smaller frame sizes like wsp, manley or ideal pay attention to the frame supports/baskets to see if they will actually support such frames properly. Most of the cheaper ones (including it appears.. the ones you linked)  will hold full depth but the other sizes are poorly supported and/or are unstable"
I have a Mann Lake 9/18 frame motorized extractor that I would never switch with one of those frame support units.
The frames sit in slots at the bottom and top edge and it works beautifully. I have blown out 2 frames out of maybe 1000 frames spun, one foundation less and one plasticel that had a crack in it from the factory. The minute it happens you know it, the drum slows way down, and I turn it off, find the failed frame, remove it, rebalance it and turn it back on. Not a big deal and the extractor hold twice as many medium frames as the ones with the frame supports.
Jim

[texanbelchers]

Ok, since this thread is continuing to get attention,  I'll in include my question.   I like the idea of the motor under the drum instead of up top.  My thoughts relate to cleaning,  access, and lower center of gravity.  I only have experience with a 2 frame hand crank,  so I'm looking for experienced input.

While I'm asking,  is the high pitched whine of the DC motors worth the cost savings?   I think that would drive me out of the extracting room.

[Acebird]

Straight DC motors don't whine.  I think you are referring to a stepper motor drive that would be a poor motor to use for an extractor.  A variable speed AC motor might grunt at low speeds but it is not considered whine.
If the motor is mounted below the tub you have to deal with a sealed bearing coming up through the vessel.  This is done on a regular basis with a washing machine.  However it would tend to raise the center of gravity to make room for the motor.  But then most extractors are put on legs to make a convenient loading height so it is a moot point.

[BeeMaster2]

Tex,
I have a variable AC motor and there is no whine.
Having the motor on top is not a problem for operating it. Actually I think it helps control/stabilize it. It is top heavy when it comes to transporting it and must bee tied down.
Jim

[texanbelchers]

I've been looking at the Lyson units.  Check out a video and listen to the sound while it is running.  Here is an example:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyqI7fw4qvQ  I've heard similar on other units, but not the MannLake 18/9.  I'd prefer a 3 phase VFD, but those seem to be on much larger units.  I can't find a definition of the "Gamma" drive that Lega uses on their unit, but it is quiet -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeSibHfRIfo.

Most likely I'm over-analyzing the whole thing because I have the time.

[BeeMaster2]

Tex,
It sounds to me like the noise is from the drum, not the motor. The noise starts the second it starts up. My Mann Lake extractor sounds like the Lega model. My wife cannot stand the noise from the first unit. She would never be able to be in the house, let alone standing over the extractor.
Jim

[Acebird]

It does sound like a stepper drive.  I wouldn't care for that either.

[omnimirage]

I have a 55 gal food grade plastic drum that I use for the outer shell of my extractor......

Does help. Where did you buy the plastic drum? What did you have to buy to build it? How long did it take to build, was it difficult?

Perusing the extractors you linked:
 - the ones labelled 'premium' I don't get, particularly what part is 'premium'.  It is a radial but essentially relies on the frames to support each other rather than having frame baskets.
 - the 8 frame 'one' from beekeepinggear is also curious as it's not 'one'. The first three photos are obviously of three different extractor models?

I used until recently an 8 frame radial extractor like this
 https://www.ozbeegear.com.au/8-frame-electric-radial-honey-extractor.html

The process of
 - clearing one super at a time from hive in my backyard, clearing with a battery powered blower
 - uncapping and holding uncapped frames in a plastic tub
 - extracting
 -  draining from the extractor into 20kg buckets
 - and returning the super to the hives to then grab the next one
operates fairly smoothly with no significant bottlenecks or choke points in the process.

with 40+ hives I'd be seriously tempted to look at a 12 frame unit  like this https://www.ozbeegear.com.au/12-frame-electric-radial-honey-extractor-1.html  to move everything along a bit faster as well as being a bit more robust, solid and hands-free in operation.

Some things to pay attention to:
 - you need to pay attention to and balance all of the bits in the extraction process including yourself. There is no use for instance having a huge extractor you can't keep operating because you can't uncap fast enough
 
 - if you use or might use smaller frame sizes like wsp, manley or ideal pay attention to the frame supports/baskets to see if they will actually support such frames properly. Most of the cheaper ones (including it appears.. the ones you linked)  will hold full depth but the other sizes are poorly supported and/or are unstable

- pay attention to just how solidly they are built and ask around about weak points

- do you need to extract difficult honeys like tea tree or that has started to crystallize in the comb or have a penchant for super soft foundationless comb? If so radials may not be the best option as they have to apply more centrifugal force on the frame to throw the honey than tangential or semi-radial extractors (which in turn are laborious or way more expensive of course )

Could you please elaborate on the need for frames to support themselves vs. having baskets? It's not obvious to me that they're from different extractors they look the same but I guess I'm a bit unsure.

Do you use 8-frame beehives? My hives largely have 9 frames, if I went and grabbed a super I'd have a spare frame after a spin which is a bit awkward, isn't it?

If I'm going to primarily spin by myself, would I be able to keep up with the extra frames that the 12 extractor could do? Not sure if the extra frames will create a bottleneck with the speed in which I'm able to cap and process everything. How can I tell if the baskets will properly support manley frames? Most of my honey frames are manley sized so this is important to me.

Where should I ask for weak points about an extractor?

My honey is very thick and crystalises fast... I didn't realise there were other types of spinners better adjusted for this. Sometimes it does crystallise in the comb, I figure if this happens then I'd just do a crush and strain with such (or avoid those frames).

[Acebird]

How can I tell if the baskets will properly support manley frames?

I am not sure what a manley frame is but supporting a frame is far from the strength that an extractor should have.  You want an extractor that can pulverize a frame should it come unglued or fall apart.  The actual supporting of the frame is nothing.  If a frame gets thrown you do not want the frame supports or basket to get distorted because that means unbalance from then on.

[omnimirage]

Okay, I didn't realise they could be so flimsy. A number of my frames are a bit dodgy. How can I tell whether an extractor can support a frame falling apart mid spin?