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Author Topic: A queen from an unfertilized egg  (Read 3748 times)

Offline Vicken

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A queen from an unfertilized egg
« on: May 31, 2017, 04:17:08 pm »
I have a swarm which failed,  the swarm never made a queen right collony,  then suddenly queen cells from laying workers,  and lot of drone brood,  then a very black queen apears it's not Carniolen nor itallian, black and white. My question is what does from an unfertilized drone larvae in a swarm cell hatch

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Offline iddee

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2017, 07:57:32 pm »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelytoky

It happens often in some species, but only seldom in Apis Mellifera.
It will most likely be a drone.
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2017, 12:32:52 am »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelytoky

It happens often in some species, but only seldom in Apis Mellifera.
It will most likely be a drone.

You do know anyone can put anything in wikipedia even you  :shocked: Just giving you a hard time....AGAIN  :happy:
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Offline little john

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2017, 01:58:40 am »
My question is what does from an unfertilized drone larvae in a swarm cell hatch

In my experience, if a drone larva - because of the absence of worker larvae, and the desire of the bees to 'do the best with what they have' - is promoted to queen status, then what results is (what I call) a 'lady-boy' queen cell. 

That is, it looks at first sight to be 'the real thing' (i.e. a queen cell) but actually isn't.  If differs from normal queen cells by being somewhat larger, certainly much longer, and has more regular, almost 'striped' indentations along it's length, when compared to the irregular indentations of a normal queen cell.

But - I've never yet seen anthing living emerge (not 'hatch' - that only happens to eggs) from such cells.  Usually the girls tear down these cells, as they presumably don't smell right, or have some other flaw which the workforce detects.

It may be that in your case this 'super-drone' has managed to survive and has emerged alive.  If so, it must be some kind of freak which doesn't fit into any category of bee, and although useless to a honeybee colony, may possibly be of value to beekeeping academics for dissection/analysis (?).

Are you in a position to take photographs of this unusual creature ?
LJ


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Online Michael Bush

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2017, 10:17:30 am »
Queenless laying worker bees will raise queen cells.  They tear them down before anything emerges.  I've never seen one taken to completion.  Thelytoky has been observed so sometimes they manage to make a queen.  I have never seen this happen, but it happens often enough that it has been observed quite a number of times.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2017, 09:17:32 pm »
I am in what I believe to be a similar situation. Nuc never released a queen and developed laying workers. I removed the still caged queen and tried to give them a frame of brood. Well no queen cells on the new frame of worker brood, but about 4-5 queen cells showed up on the other frames. Last I checked one was capped and the others weren't. I was fully prepared to just shake them out and be done, but the queen cells intrigued me. I'll check back on Monday to see what happens.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline ondine

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2017, 06:38:37 am »
I have a swarm which failed,  the swarm never made a queen right collony,  then suddenly queen cells from laying workers,  and lot of drone brood,  then a very black queen apears it's not Carniolen nor itallian, black and white. My question is what does from an unfertilized drone larvae in a swarm cell hatch

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A king ?

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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2017, 06:54:02 am »
Here is  some info on what happens.


 Basically, Thelytoky is... the ability to rear workers and queens utilising the eggs from laying workers, or in some cases virgin queens. This subject has in the past been considered a rarity that only occurs in the Cape bee, Apis mellifera capensis Escholtz, but it has been found in other strains.

While Thelytoky is exhibited strongly in Capensis, it does occur in all races of Apis mellifera, but in all except Capensis, it is very rare [1]. At Capensis levels it is destructive, but at levels of one in a million it is unlikely to do much harm and on the rare occasion that the gene pool is impoverished, it can maintain genes that might be otherwise lost.

It would be wrong to consider Thelytoky as an important issue, but studying the causes and effects gives us a little more insight into the feedback that helps to regulate natural selection. It exists and is stable at it's current levels, hopefully whatever keeps it that way will counteract any selection that may be done by humans that may try to increase it.

The diploid eggs laid by thelytokious bees are formed from haploid eggs that have a modified division process in the early stages of cell division...
Below is the process as described in Capensis

Production of parthenogenetic female eggs - thelytoky Verma and Ruttner (1983) showed that the secondary oocyte fuses with a polar body in the content of the unfertilized oocyte during meiosis. This automictic mechanism was suggested by Tucker (1958) and allows no combination of loci in the offspring, unless crossing over mediates the exchange of linkage groups. Moritz and Haberl (1994) could not detect crossing over in the formation of these diploid offspring, hence all offspring of a single capensis worker are genetically identical, mother and daughter therefore form a genetic clone. Ruttner(1988) claimed that only a single recessive allele, th, at one locus determines workers to perform thelytokious parthenogenesis. The thelytokious parthenogenesis has been explained as an adaptation to the harsh, wet, windy conditions where the queen is much more on a risk getting lost during her mating flights (Tribe 1983, Moritz and Kauhausen 1984, Moritz 1986). But paradoxically, the highest frequencies of matings occurs in months in which the winds are most intense (Allsopp and Hepburn 1997). Referring to the high mating frequency detected in A. m. capensis (Estoup et al. 1994, Moritz et al. 1996, Kryger 1997) the mating risk of the queens seems not to be higher than in European races.

Taken from...
Regulation of reproductive dominance hierarchiesin Apis mellifera capensis workers Dissertation zur Erlangung des akademischen Gradesdoctor rerum naturalium (Dr. rer.nat.) vorgelegt der Mathematisch-Naturwissenschaftlich-Technischen Fakult?t (mathematisch-naturwissenschaftlicher Bereich) der Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenbergvon Frau Ute Simongeb. am: 11.08.1967 in Emden Gutachter1. Prof. R.F.A. Moritz2. Prof. N. Koeniger3. Prof. R.M. Crewe.

Thelytoky does occur in the European Apis mellifera strains, but with considerably lower frequency. In queenright colonies development of most worker ovaries is suppressed by the pheromone 9 - oxy - decenoic acid and possibly other substances emitted by the queen, [2] as well as substances possibly emitted by unsealed brood. [3] Workers can develop ovaries and some can lay eggs in the absence of both queen and open brood. [4]

European laying workers generally produce unfertilized haploid eggs that give rise to drones (if they develop at all). It is rare, but there are instances of both virgin queens and laying workers producing diploid eggs and those that develop, produce true female worker or queen bees. [5]

What causes Thelytoky? First a biological mechanism is needed to produce viable diploid eggs. Secondly various natural control systems need to be bye-passed or modified {see worker policing}. The biological mechanism of how the haploid egg becomes diploid is a gobbledygook sentence that I will reproduce here...

"Cape bee workers lay unfertilized diploid eggs because during ana-phase II the egg pronucleus and the central descendent of the first polar body fuse to form a diploid zygote nucleus." [6]

But the behaviour modification is more difficult to understand!

I offer various quotes and elements of the original text that I hope will aid understanding...


   
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Offline ondine

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 04:49:12 pm »
If you only have laying workers then even with the miracle of a virgin birth you will need nurse bees


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Offline Bush_84

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2017, 12:35:32 am »
Well as far as I can tell my cells were torn down.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline ondine

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2017, 12:13:04 pm »
Well as far as I can tell my cells were torn down.
Laying workers are not worth the effort
They are old bees probably nearing the end of their lifespan
So there is nothing to save apart from the  comb which they are busy wrecking anyway




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Offline little john

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2017, 01:15:20 pm »
Laying workers are not worth the effort
They are old bees probably nearing the end of their lifespan
So there is nothing to save
apart from the  comb which they are busy wrecking anyway
Quote
If you only have laying workers then even with the miracle of a virgin birth you will need nurse bees

You seem to be suggesting that if a person has Laying Workers - then that's all they have - 100% Laying Workers.  With no Foragers, and no Nurse Bees.  This simply isn't true.  You may have (say) just half-a dozen Laying Workers amongst an otherwise almost complete - albeit queenless - colony.

I share the view that on balance, it's seldom worth the effort to save LW colonies, but that's not the same as saying that there's nothing at all left to save.  The foragers in particular (maybe half the workforce) are certainly worth saving.
Some people do invest a few frames of open brood to rectify the situation, with a reported good success rate, but that's not for me.
LJ
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Offline ondine

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2017, 06:15:57 pm »
Laying workers are not worth the effort
They are old bees probably nearing the end of their lifespan
So there is nothing to save
apart from the  comb which they are busy wrecking anyway
Quote
If you only have laying workers then even with the miracle of a virgin birth you will need nurse bees

You seem to be suggesting that if a person has Laying Workers - then that's all they have - 100% Laying Workers.  With no Foragers, and no Nurse Bees.  This simply isn't true.  You may have (say) just half-a dozen Laying Workers amongst an otherwise almost complete - albeit queenless - colony.

I share the view that on balance, it's seldom worth the effort to save LW colonies, but that's not the same as saying that there's nothing at all left to save.  The foragers in particular (maybe half the workforce) are certainly worth saving.
Some people do invest a few frames of open brood to rectify the situation, with a reported good success rate, but that's not for me.
LJ
Laying workers usually appear about 6 weeks after the hive is hopelessly queenless
You could put brood in the hive which by now will only have adult bees
Often they don't raise a cell though
If they do
By the time they raise a QC and she gets mated all the original bees are at the end of life
So if you were going to use several frames of brood you might as well just start a nucleus
Its sad but active bees have a short life in Summer

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Offline Bush_84

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2017, 01:45:31 pm »
Mine developed laying workers within two weeks with a queen in a queen cage. I made a nuc and added the queen a few days later. I would have done it right away but my availability was an issue. I think my mistake was adding capped brood to the nuc. They had no open brood and they never released the queen.  So bees don't always follow our rules and will sometimes do something weird.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline ondine

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2017, 07:08:51 pm »
Mine developed laying workers within two weeks with a queen in a queen cage. I made a nuc and added the queen a few days later. I would have done it right away but my availability was an issue. I think my mistake was adding capped brood to the nuc. They had no open brood and they never released the queen.  So bees don't always follow our rules and will sometimes do something weird.
I see
That's unusual but you are right there are very few things you can guarantee will happen with bees :)


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Offline Bush_84

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Re: A queen from an unfertilized egg
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2017, 08:42:23 pm »
Ya it was a huge bummer and setback to my year.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

 

anything