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Author Topic: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board  (Read 9554 times)

Offline jimineycricket

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2021, 09:26:28 pm »
        It seems to me that the definitions of a snelgrove board and a double screen board have gotten blurred.  A snelgrove board has multiple gated entrances.  A double screen board has only one entrance.  Both Bob Binnie and Mr. Ed use the double screen boards on a regular basis.  On their websites their videos show how to make and use them.
jimmy

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2021, 10:47:03 pm »
Thanks jimineycricket, I have watched those videos of the two folks you mentioned. They do always call their board the double screen dividers. I did look up snelgrove board earlier and this is what I found from better bee.  As you say there probably is a difference but better bee says snelgrove invented the double screen divider board as follows.

Adding it is interesting to see Mr Binnie has learned a way to incorporate its use in a commercial setting by using it for his fall splits for one of his examples....


Betterbee
" The double screen board was invented, and first described, by an English beekeeper named Leonard Snelgrove in 1934. This board allows you to make a vertical split with both parts remaining in a single stack after the split. But Snelgrove's invention goes beyond just keeping the two parts together on the same base. The double screen board has three sets of paired doors that allow some of the bees to be shifted between the two units after the split in order to maintain a non-swarmy assortment of the various age-classes of bees in each part of the split."

Mr Binnies' and Jeffs' only have one entrance as I recall as you stated.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 03:48:24 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2021, 10:55:04 pm »
Do you use either version of these Jimmy? If so which one?
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline jimineycricket

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2021, 02:36:16 pm »
          Yes, after loosing a hive that swarmed and the virgin did not return from her mating flight.  So, I keep a double screen board with me all the time.   I also use it for just splitting a hive like Mr. Ed does, or for temporarily splitting a hive.   The Snelgrove board gives me a headache trying to figure how to set it up.  :grin:
           BTW, looks to me like the paragraph quoted from BetterBee has scrambled the definition of a Snelgrove and the double screen board.                                                                                                                                                   
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2021, 03:10:33 pm »
Quote
jimineycricket
BTW, looks to me like the paragraph quoted from BetterBee has scrambled the definition of a Snelgrove and the double screen board.


If the snelgrove, (original design), is more complicated what are the advantages?

Even Jeffs' version and Mr Binnies' version are quite a bit different in design.
Do you have a preference? If so which do you prefer? Is there a particular
reason for this preference?

Thanks Jimmy for your valuable input..


"Double screened dividing board splits. "  video (a)
"What is a double screened dividing board, and how is it used? " video (b)
Jeff Horchoff Bees. youtube


"Nuc Production and Harvest Using Double Screen Boards
Bob Binnie. youtube



« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 03:42:43 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2021, 03:47:06 pm »
Some good stuff posted here from the post 11 years ago; as one example, RoBo 2010 Reply #10, to the most recent post by The15Member and jimineycricket..


« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 07:23:32 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Honey Hive Farms

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2021, 09:40:04 am »
We do double screens between hives if we are running low on equipment. We have had good luck. In Missouri we put two hives together with a double screen to help the heat to get say two smaller hives through the Winter.  Saves a top and a bottom.  :)
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Offline mark

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2021, 10:55:50 am »
don't over think it.  a snelgrove IS simply a double screen board.  the extra "gated openings" are just a convieniance so you don't need to worry which way it's put on the hive.

Offline paus

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2021, 11:54:46 am »
????? Why is the screen double, how far apart are the screens,  what kind of screen , why not just one screen ,#8, window screen, could a single screen be used for a combine, would the bees fight with only one screen, how can pheromones be spread through two screens. are there cases when you want pheromones to be distributed between the top and bottom boxes, etc.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2021, 12:04:46 pm »
????? Why is the screen double, how far apart are the screens,  what kind of screen , why not just one screen ,#8, window screen, could a single screen be used for a combine, would the bees fight with only one screen, how can pheromones be spread through two screens. are there cases when you want pheromones to be distributed between the top and bottom boxes, etc.
I've seen bees fight through a single screen several times.  The two screens in a double screen/Snelgrove board aren't very far apart (I'm not sure the exact measurement), but the gap between them allows the scents and pheromones to circulate between the two groups of bees without them being able to reach each other to fight.   
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2021, 12:48:24 pm »
????? Why is the screen double, how far apart are the screens,  what kind of screen , why not just one screen ,#8, window screen, could a single screen be used for a combine, would the bees fight with only one screen, how can pheromones be spread through two screens. are there cases when you want pheromones to be distributed between the top and bottom boxes, etc.
I've seen bees fight through a single screen several times.  The two screens in a double screen/Snelgrove board aren't very far apart (I'm not sure the exact measurement), but the gap between them allows the scents and pheromones to circulate between the two groups of bees without them being able to reach each other to fight.   

I build mine with 3/4" Advantech Board or Legacy LP in the Bob Binnie style.  I 'think' Mr Binnie uses a high grade 3/4" plywood. I also use duriable number 8 hardware cloth. Very strong and durable for the long haul.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2021, 12:56:29 pm »
One other thing I do that I have not seen is I add a run of Titebond III along the edges of the screen for two purposes. To cut down on snag from the cut screen edges and adding strength for screen support..
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2021, 01:08:07 pm »
Also Paus; When making splits with the 'double screen divider board', the bees in the queenless section will develop a new queen with eggs provided. If this new queen fails to come back from the mating flight, for whatever reason the divider board can simply be removed and you again have the entire hive intact. Almost no risk involved.

Another option considering the above case. In case the virgin does not make a successful mating flight, you can add a 'mated queen if you wish', keeping the divider board in place until you are sure the new queen has been proven, laying eggs and developing brood etc. 'Then' you can safely move the new split.

Yet another option, a new mated queen can be introduced in the queenless part, right off the bat, when making a split without going through the waiting period of developing a new queen. With the dividing board installed (for insurance reasons), she will readily be accepted, when proper steps are taken just as in any queenless, mated queen introduction.

Since the bees from the two stacked boxes with the DSDB can not touch, leaving them unable to 'distribute' the queen rite sections' pheromones 'by touch'; Which from my understanding is the key in all above scenarios .. (They can not physically distribute the queens pheromones 'directly' from bee to bee if you will), in the quenless section which sparks a natural desire or need for a queen. I suppose this board DSDB could also be referred as the insurance board... lol




« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 02:06:36 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2021, 01:12:42 pm »
We do double screens between hives if we are running low on equipment. We have had good luck. In Missouri we put two hives together with a double screen to help the heat to get say two smaller hives through the Winter.  Saves a top and a bottom.  :)

This is also an added advantage of using the double screen dividing board. Thank you for pointing this out.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Bill Murray

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2021, 09:53:12 am »
I use double screens all the time for splits. I make them out of old 3/4 inch feeder lids when they have seen their better days. Its like American express I don't leave home without them. the resons were already posted by Ben
Quote
When making splits with the 'double screen divider board', the bees in the queenless section will develop a new queen with eggs provided. If this new queen fails to come back from the mating flight, for whatever reason the divider board can simply be removed and you again have the entire hive intact. Almost no risk involved.

Another option considering the above case. In case the virgin does not make a successful mating flight, you can add a 'mated queen if you wish', keeping the divider board in place until you are sure the new queen has been proven, laying eggs and developing brood etc. 'Then' you can safely move the new split.

Yet another option, a new mated queen can be introduced in the queenless part, right off the bat, when making a split without going through the waiting period of developing a new queen. With the dividing board installed (for insurance reasons), she will readily be accepted, when proper steps are taken just as in any queenless, mated queen introduction.
I also found it saves hauling piles of equipment all the time. When the splits are ready you know exactly what you need  next trip to the yard. The other-thing is I can also make early, small 3 frame splits on top of a double due to the heat rise, if they dont take just put frames back in brood box, remove and install 3 more.

Offline NigelP

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2021, 03:55:23 pm »
Couldn't agree more Bill. I use Snelgrove boards all the time for swarm control, easy peasy. I tend to ignore all the detailed opening and shutting times of various entrance wedges, unless there is a serious flow on and use a Snelgrove board more as a physical spilt with extra entrance.
What is slightly staggering is that no-one has mentioned that Snelgrove described (and detailed)  2 methods of swarm control. One comes under swarm prevention (Snelgrove method1) and the split is done before any queen cells are seen. This is useful if you have local bees that are annual swarmers. The second method (Snelgrove method 2) is performed when you see queen cells in the hive. The great advantage of Method 2 is that initially the queen is kept in the same box as the nurse bees and queen cells. The fliers return to the lower box and as the top box has now lost all it's swarming initiators (scout bees), all the queen cells in the top box get torn  down by the bees themselves. This includes all the hidden queen cells you would have missed. It takes a leap of faith to try this for the first time, but it's one the few actions in beekeeping that works over 90% plus of the time. Bees being bees there is always an occasional exception.
Snelgrove's only mistake was returning the queen to the lower box after 3 days......but that as they say is another story.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2021, 07:20:06 pm »
NigelP I haven't read Snelgroves' instructions. I learned this method from Bob Binnie. (DSDB) I do not return the queen to the bottom after three days. In fact I leave her on top until I move the split, (after I am certain the bottom has an established laying productive queen). Then I move the entire top to a another yard. I did this after extraction this season with a few as an experiment and It worked super!!
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline NigelP

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2021, 04:29:22 am »
Yes, exactly Ben. Very similar to the way I proceed. I often don't want a new queen so leave bottom box with frame of sealed brood and check this frame for any unwanted queen cells. Leave for 2 weeks until the "Scout bees" have matured into foragers and then "swarm fever" is over and boxes can be directly united back together.
Or if I want a new queen from a particular line I can introduce a frame with eggs to the bottom box and let them get on with it. A very flexible and accommodating method. The only drawback is I often end up with very tall stacks of brood boxes and supers.....
Snelgroves book is an interesting read, his rational about what he was doing was erroneous (he could only surmise from the limited data they had in those days).
I think like many things in beekeeping few ever read the original source of any methods and pass on the Chinese like whispers versions which then become entrenched as erroneous dogma.
For example, many in the UK use and promote Demaree as a method to go to when you have queen cells, i.e  swarm control....when it's primarily swarm prevention, a small but very important difference.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 06:51:41 am by NigelP »

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2021, 08:11:31 am »
NigelP I look forward to reading Snelgroves book, thanks for your interesting enthusiastic input. I share the same enthusiasm!

Phillip
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline NigelP

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Re: Clever or "Fluff and over-hyped-crap"? : The Double Screen Board
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2021, 05:58:24 pm »
Its a fascinating study Ben, just don't get bogged down with his minutia on the timed  opening of this window and closing that one etc.
He was UK Victorian and the minutia and exacting detail was expected as such  :wink:
It's also a short book, so won't take long to read. He also details many of the other swarm prevention/swarm control methods that were (and still are) used/taught  today, with his thoughts on their efficiency or not as the case may be.
Snelgrove boards (UK) Double screen boards (USA) rule OKAY  :cool: