Unorganized queen laying- Will she become more organized as she matures?

[tanyamac]

This is my first year keeping bees solo. Even though I've worked with bees for a few years- I've yet to see every scenario and probably never will as bees always keep us on our toes.

I bought a healthy established hive from a mentor back in June. He lives fairly close to me, so I had to move the hive further away before I could move it home. He advised me that soon as I brought it home, to split it so it wouldn't swarm. However, we had a run of very hot sunny weather, and they swarmed while I couldn't keep an eye on them. So my first hive inspection was a bit disheartening- had almost a full capped medium of honey on the top. Some capped brood, but no eggs or larvae...couldn't spot a new queen but there was evidence of queen cells, so I hoped things were optimistic. My bottom super was empty....no bees, no pollen, no brood. Definitely not how I  hoped my solo bee adventure would begin lol.

I called my mentor and asked what my next steps should be. He said leave the hive alone for two weeks and reassess. It was a long two weeks, I was dying to know what was going on inside. Fast forward to inspection time- good news being I have a laying queen, eggs, larvae, brood in a different stages. Bad news being that she has eggs everywhere- all three boxes, and probably 6 frames of each box, including 4 or 5 of the top box which only had honey during my previous inspection.
My mentor does not believe in QEs, as he believes they are honey excluders as well- which is why I'm not asking him this question. Will my queen become more organized in her laying techniques as she matures? Or do I prepare to use a QE next inspection? I'm not concerned about harvesting any honey this year, but it's late July and cold weather can come early in Nova Scotia, so I need to think ahead to fall and winter prep.

Thoughts and advice are appreciated!

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[Ben Framed]

Bad news being that she has eggs everywhere- all three boxes, and probably 6 frames of each box, including 4 or 5 of the top box which only had honey during my previous inspection.

Are all three boxes mediums?

[tanyamac]

Bottom is a deep. Top two are mediums.

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[tanyamac]

He always uses only one deep on the bottom although most people in our area use 2, then mediums for honey. Everyone is different and his method has worked for him for 50+ years.

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[Ben Framed]

He always uses only one deep on the bottom although most people in our area use 2, then mediums for honey. Everyone is different and his method has worked for him for 50+ years.

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There are many ways to do things in beekeeping. Glad you are here!

[The15thMember]

I also do not use queen excluders, just never have found any need for them.  What I normally do if I have a queen laying up too high for my liking is I'll just rearrange the hive so all the brood is on the bottom and the honey is on the top, and usually that will fix the problem.  I run all mediums, so it's easy for me to put any frame anywhere; it might be more challenging for you because you have some deep frames and some mediums.  If possible, I'd move all the medium brood frames to the bottom medium above the deep, and put all the honey frames in the top medium.  If one or two frames don't end up in an ideal location, that's fine, just rearrange to the best of your ability and liking, and in my experience most times the bees will get back to a more normal organization.  If they don't, I figure they know best, and I usually just let them be.  I have one hive which doesn't put any brood on the left side of the hive, no matter how many times I rearrange.  Perhaps there is a draft on that side of the hive that I'm unaware of, or it's too warm or cold for their liking there, and that's okay with me.  Especially if you are not concerned about harvesting honey this year, the organization of the hive doesn't really matter, it's mostly just for beekeeper convenience.   

My mentor does not believe in QEs, as he believes they are honey excluders as well- which is why I'm not asking him this question. Will my queen become more organized in her laying techniques as she matures? Or do I prepare to use a QE next inspection? I'm not concerned about harvesting any honey this year, but it's late July and cold weather can come early in Nova Scotia, so I need to think ahead to fall and winter prep.

In no way do I want to question the integrity of your mentor, but I'd be wary of someone who is so set in his ways that you don't even feel comfortable asking this question.  Beekeeping can be a very individual thing, and just because something works great for someone at a certain location doesn't mean it will work for someone else at different location or even at the same location.  Feel free to try out anything you feel you need or want to keep your bees happy and healthy. 

[AR Beekeeper]

Rearranging the frames as suggested may solve your problem, but I would suggest that you find the queen and place her in the bottom deep.  If you have trouble finding the queen shake the bees from the combs of the upper boxes into the bottom deep, put on an excluder, them place the mediums above the excluder to allow the brood to emerge.  Offset the mediums front to rear to make a 1/4 inch gap for the drones to exit the hive.  One week later check the upper boxes for queen cells.

I have found the queen excluder to be a valuable management tool.  In my beekeeping conditions it's impact on honey production is small, if any.  It's effect on labor management is great, it reduces the time spent per colony greatly.

[Oldbeavo]

If you don't want honey, then do nothing, bees will sort out what they are most comfortable with.
But AR is correct, a QX is a valuable management tool. WE could not run an apiary of our size without them. Time efficiency is optimised with a QX, whether it is for honey harvest or queen inspection.
I cannot fond any scientific data for the QX argument, it is all opinions for or against.

[tanyamac]

Thanks everyone!

I think next inspection I'll move the frames around I can and introduce the queen excluder. Not for honey production, but to help the colony get 'sorted out' so to speak.

By no means am I uncomfortable asking my mentor questions, I just know that he wouldn't recommend using an excluder and I wanted opinions on them.

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[Robo]

If you don't want honey, then do nothing, bees will sort out what they are most comfortable with.

^ this

I'm not in any way trying to be condescending,  but do you really believe you know what is "best" for them?   Almost every beekeeper I know has the best intentions for the bees,  however the management styles that have been developed over the year don't always jive with the bees natural instincts and often we are fighting with them when we think we are helping them.  Bees are fighters/survivors and will make the best of what they can in a given situation,  so just because something "seems to work" doesn't necessarily make it "good".   We as beekeepers need to start taking into account the natural instincts of the bees and not just what supposedly works for beekeepers.  The fact that feral bees seems to do fine on their own should be a notice to us,  but we tend to believe we know what is best.   Of course feral bees die and have issues with non-native pests we have introduced.   But time and time again I have seen people hive a feral colony from a bee tree that has been there "forever" and they die the 1st winter.

In a feral tree colony,  the queen will lay brood as high up in the nest as she can.  As the brood hatches the workers will backfill the cells with honey and drive the brood nest down.   This way when winter arrives, the brood nest is low with the winter stores above.   As they progress through winter they slowly move up to the stores above that which are continually being pre-heated from the heat of the cluster rising.   Of course beekeepers top supering screws this up and causes many of disjointed brood nests we experience.

Also when a hive swarms and becomes queenless there is a period where there is no brood to care for and the focus turns to collecting nectar.  They will often just store this wherever they can find a spot.  It takes a lot of space to dry out nectar.  As the new queen comes online they will start to clear out a nesting area for her, but often times these new queens are laying machines and the cleared out nesting area is quickly filled and she goes searching for areas to lay.

If you want to disrupt their plan and move stuff around and install a queen excluder,  make sure you remove it before winter otherwise the cluster will move up through winter and the queen will be trapped below and die.  I would focus more on getting the hive configured for winter and give them plenty of time to seal up seams before winter.  Do you really plan to go through winter with less than 1 deep and 2 mediums?   Seems like you would need at least that in NS,  especially if using wooden boxes.   I'm in the mountains and winter comes early here too,  I try to have my hives in winter configuration by October 1st to given them time to seal and organize.   With that said, I rarely meet that target,  but do my best. 

Best of luck with your first winter....

[Ben Framed]

If you don't want honey, then do nothing, bees will sort out what they are most comfortable with.

^ this

I'm not in any way trying to be condescending,  but do you really believe you know what is "best" for them?   Almost every beekeeper I know has the best intentions for the bees,  however the management styles that have been developed over the year don't always jive with the bees natural instincts and often we are fighting with them when we think we are helping them.  Bees are fighters/survivors and will make the best of what they can in a given situation,  so just because something "seems to work" doesn't necessarily make it "good".   We as beekeepers need to start taking into account the natural instincts of the bees and not just what supposedly works for beekeepers.  The fact that feral bees seems to do fine on their own should be a notice to us,  but we tend to believe we know what is best.   Of course feral bees die and have issues with non-native pests we have introduced.   But time and time again I have seen people hive a feral colony from a bee tree that has been there "forever" and they die the 1st winter.

In a feral tree colony,  the queen will lay brood as high up in the nest as she can.  As the brood hatches the workers will backfill the cells with honey and drive the brood nest down.   This way when winter arrives, the brood nest is low with the winter stores above.   As they progress through winter they slowly move up to the stores above that which are continually being pre-heated from the heat of the cluster rising.   Of course beekeepers top supering screws this up and causes many of disjointed brood nests we experience.

Also when a hive swarms and becomes queenless there is a period where there is no brood to care for and the focus turns to collecting nectar.  They will often just store this wherever they can find a spot.  It takes a lot of space to dry out nectar.  As the new queen comes online they will start to clear out a nesting area for her, but often times these new queens are laying machines and the cleared out nesting area is quickly filled and she goes searching for areas to lay.

If you want to disrupt their plan and move stuff around and install a queen excluder,  make sure you remove it before winter otherwise the cluster will move up through winter and the queen will be trapped below and die.  I would focus more on getting the hive configured for winter and give them plenty of time to seal up seams before winter.  Do you really plan to go through winter with less than 1 deep and 2 mediums?   Seems like you would need at least that in NS,  especially if using wooden boxes.   I'm in the mountains and winter comes early here too,  I try to have my hives in winter configuration by October 1st to given them time to seal and organize.   With that said, I rarely meet that target,  but do my best. 

Best of luck with your first winter....

You make some very accurate and good points Robo about the the way of wild bees and the way feral bees do things and operate. I like it. We, mankind, has come a long way with the creatures that God has placed in our dominion. Please allow me to share my thoughts with you and Oldbeavo.

Back before the war Between the States, Texas was a haven for beef cattle, wild longhorns roamed freely, came and went as they choose, living, eating, and multiplying. Nature has a way of taking care of its creatures. After the war there was a great demand for beef in the United States and a great abundance of wild cattle in Texas. Broke cattlemen recognized this and re-arranged the cattles' natural way of doing things and life in general. Management of cattle quickly evolved in Texas. The rancher learned to gather the cattle, dip the cattle for ticks, put up fences for management etc. Wild cattle of Texas became 'Managed Livestock' for Ranchers. Fences were frowned upon by many. History teaches, small scale wars even sprang up over this new way of managing cattle, as many disagreed with this new way of managing cattle with different points of view. "Fences" 

I suppose in a way, if we really look at it from a livestock point of view, bees are considered livestock here in America. The same mind set has evolved so to speak with honey bees if you will. From feral hives in trees, to bee gums, and now Langstroth bee hives etc. as we (manage) our bees as livestock, seeking to produce the most from our bees. Just as the cattle men of long ago did with the wild cattle.  For some commercial beekeepers such as Oldbeavo, TheHoneyPump, and others, The "rope", i.e. "excluders" are an important part of their management techniques. I suppose it depends on which side of the fence we sit on as to what the outlook may be?  lol  I am not disputing either one of you here my friends and I use the word friends sincerely toward each of you. I'm looking at it from a distance and comparing management practices of bees and cattle and the evolution of management of each.

[Robo]

Totally agree,  commercial beekeepers and hobbyists are too different beasts.   Commercial guys can't manage like a backyard beekeeper and backyard beeks can't manage like commercial beeks.

As far as agriculture,  it is not hard to argue that our progression of large mono crops and  life stock farms can be seen as a disaster and perhaps the biggest cause of our current environmental/health issues.   I believe this is why you are seeing a huge growth in local small scale farms and CSAs.

[Ben Framed]

Totally agree,  commercial beekeepers and hobbyists are too different beasts.   Commercial guys can't manage like a backyard beekeeper and backyard beeks can't manage like commercial beeks.

As far as agriculture,  it is not hard to argue that our progression of large mono crops and  life stock farms can be seen as a disaster and perhaps the biggest cause of our current environmental/health issues.   I believe this is why you are seeing a huge growth in local small scale farms and CSAs.

Thanks Robo good points and well taken..   

Adding:
Our local farmers market is packed on the Square at our County Seat here in my County each Saturday morning. Folks are lined up purchasing home grown farm products.... The buyers do not seem to be concerned of price...

[Oldbeavo]

Robo
We don't have snow for winter, 0 - 5 nights and 13-17 C daytime is our normal temp range, we winter our bees about 200 mile north to gain 2-3 degress in daytime temp.
We leave our QX in place but the bees really wax them up, 60-70 of the area waxed and the colony will live in the bottom, if there are not enough bees in the super we take it off and pack them down . All our boxes are deeps.
Even if the hive is a single it keeps its QX, firstly for hygiene, secondly i don't have to worry where it is when i want to put a super on.

[FloridaGardener]

Even if the hive is a single it keeps its QX, firstly for hygiene...

I'm curious, how does a QX affect hygeine? Sincerely -FG

[Bee North]

Hi FG
let me try...
I'm going to guess Oldbeavo wants to keep the QX with its nominated hive. Less chance of cross contamination.

[Oldbeavo]

Exactly right BN
As a well matured BK it is also nice to not have to worry about "did i bring some or enough QX's for this group".
We used to keep the supers from that apiary went back to that group, but that was lost when we went past 200 hives. So our habit of keeping QX's with the hive for hygiene is diluted by the mixing of supers.