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Author Topic: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?  (Read 8321 times)

Offline Culley

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Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« on: November 29, 2014, 07:16:22 am »
So I had a few nice looking capped queen cells in a 4 frame nuc. Haven't checked it in a week or two, checked today, and it looks like a queen has just started laying in some of the available drone cells?  :? I didn't see a queen. All the queen cells are gone now. I believe it's a queen because it was in two neat patches, in a solid pattern, one egg to each cell. Each patch is about 2 inches wide, just on one frame, so I think it's only just started laying...

Is the queen a dud, will she only ever lay drones?

Is it laying workers?

Has the queen started laying drones before she's mated?

Has the queen mated and just wants to lay some drones first?

I guess time will tell.

Offline troyin17331

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2014, 01:36:43 pm »
if you are only seeing one egg per cell it is most likely laying workers. it is still early and they may feel they need drones. the next time you go in to the hives you should find both if you do not then you may want to consider requeening. also  a 4 frame nuc is not that big you may want to put them into something larger they may end up swarming.

Offline Culley

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2014, 12:46:24 am »
if you are only seeing one egg per cell it is most likely laying workers. it is still early and they may feel they need drones. the next time you go in to the hives you should find both if you do not then you may want to consider requeening. also  a 4 frame nuc is not that big you may want to put them into something larger they may end up swarming.

But queens lay one egg to a cell. I thought laying workers didn't lay in a solid brood pattern?

Thanks for your reply. I am not worried, just fascinated, and will wait and see what happens.

After they are queenright I'll probably put them in a bigger box. I have a spare 5 frame nuc box, and some 8 frame and 10 frame bottom boxes I am getting ready.

Offline thewhiterhino

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2014, 11:08:24 pm »
If there no drones in your nuc she may make some before her mating flights. Any one else have an opinion on this?

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Offline Culley

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2014, 02:12:37 am »
Looks like the queen has stopped laying drones.  :? Also, I have never been able to find this elusive queen. Maybe the bees killed her.

Offline jayj200

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2014, 12:48:58 pm »
see any eggs?
are they in the bottom? or on the side?
keep looking.
next week, ask the same questions. she may not be mated yet

Online Kathyp

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2014, 09:19:16 pm »
pictures are helpful.  one egg per cell on the bottom of the cell or even on the sides for a new queen is not laying workers.  tight pattern.  not laying workers.  just because she was laying in drone cells doesn't mean she laid drones.  what do the capped cells look like.

new queens take a bit to get started and to learn to do it right.  are you still finding eggs and what is the pattern?

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Offline Culley

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2014, 05:12:17 am »
Thanks - I will get some pictures when we have a sunny day.

One egg to a cell, on the bottom of the cells. Good pattern, but it looks like they're all drone cells. But maybe they'll be jumbo workers.  :-D

Offline hjon71

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2014, 06:17:16 am »
Thanks - I will get some pictures when we have a sunny day.

One egg to a cell, on the bottom of the cells. Good pattern, but it looks like they're all drone cells. But maybe they'll be jumbo workers.  :-D

1Egg on the bottom sounds like a queen laying to me. Everything I've read or seen says laying workers abdomen is too short and stick eggs on the sides. Sometimes multiples in the same cell and never in a solid pattern.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2014, 08:44:04 am »
>If there no drones in your nuc she may make some before her mating flights. Any one else have an opinion on this?

A queen that has not mated never lays any eggs.  A queen that is mated late lays nothing but drones.  No queen lays any eggs before her mating flight.
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Offline jayj200

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2014, 05:44:04 pm »
Good to know Mike

Offline Culley

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2014, 05:59:26 pm »
Thanks Michael. What do you think of my theory that she started laying drones and the bees killed her?

Offline Culley

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2014, 03:31:58 am »
Had another look today. Had a good look for a queen and couldn't see one, but I did see a few more eggs (in drone cells), and some open drone brood.

I was going to just take some photos today and give the frames to other hives - but I also found the beginnings of a queen cell with larvae in it, so I have left the nuc together to see what will happen  :?

So the queen is definitely laying drones - but how is there a queen cell?

Here are the photos:












Queen cell with larvae in it.




Other side of the frame (drone brood is only on one frame)




More drone brood.



Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2014, 09:29:00 am »
>Thanks Michael. What do you think of my theory that she started laying drones and the bees killed her?

Likely.

>So the queen is definitely laying drones - but how is there a queen cell?

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#maleeggsinroyalcells
"It is a singular fact, that the females, whose fecundation has been retarded, sometimes lay the eggs of males in royal cells. I shall prove, in the history of swarms, that immediately when queens, in the natural state, begin their great laying of male eggs, the workers construct numerous royal cells. Undoubtedly, there is some secret relation between the appearance of male eggs and the construction of these cells; for it is a law of nature from which bees never derogate. It is not surprising, therefore, that such cells are constructed in hives governed by queens laying the eggs of males only. It is no longer extraordinary that these queens deposit in the royal cells, eggs of the only species they can lay, for in general their instinct seems affected. But what I cannot comprehend is, why the bees take exactly the same care of the male eggs deposited in royal cells, as of those that should become queens. They provide them more plentifully with food, they build up the cells as if containing a royal worm; in a word, they labour with such regularity that we have frequently been deceived. More than once, in the firm persuasion of finding royal nymphs, we have opened the cells after they were sealed, yet the nymph of a drone always appeared. Here the instinct of the workers seemed defective. In the natural state, they can accurately distinguish the male worms from those of common bees, as they never fail giving a particular covering to the cells containing the former. Why then can they no longer distinguish the worms of drones, when deposited in the royal cell? The fact deserves much attention. I am convinced that to investigate the instinct of animals, we must carefully observe where it appears to err."--Francis Huber, New Observations on Bees Vol I Letter III, June 1787.

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#onlymaleeggs
"Speaking of females laying male eggs alone, I have already expressed my surprise that bees bestow, on those deposited in royal cells, such care and attention as to feed the worms proceeding from them, and, at the period of transformation, to close them up. But I know not, Sir, why I omitted to observe that, after sealing the royal cells, the workers build them up, and sit on them until the last metamorphosis of the included male. (Translators note: It is difficult to discover whether the author thinks, as some Naturalists, that bees are instrumental in hatching the eggs. T.) The treatment of the royal cells where fertile workers lay the eggs of drones is very different. They begin indeed with bestowing every care on their eggs and worms; they close the cells at a suitable time, but never fail to destroy them three days afterwards."--Francis Huber, New Observations on Bees, Vol I Letter V, August 1788.
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Offline Culley

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2014, 02:37:28 am »
Thanks for the info. I never knew that a queen would lay a drone egg in a queen cup and the bees would raise it. Bees are amazing  :)

I combined that nuc back into the other hives today.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Newly hatched queen is laying drones?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2014, 08:17:33 am »
Culley,
My first nuc had nothing but drones in it even though I had seen the queen, usually with bees walking over her. On the last inspection, after seeing hundreds of drones dragged out of the hive with deformed wings, I saw the queen had the same problem. She never flew and there for never mated. We replaced her with a new queen but the SHB took control and slimed the hive completely. The seller gave me 2 deep boxes from a hive that had swarmed and they ended up making lots of honey that first year.
Jim
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