Foundation and Starter Strips" When to do it?

[Carriage House Farm]

OK, so I am going to putting together about 400 frames or so and I was wondering, when I am done with that can I go on ahead and run my starter strips (I have split wedge frames and do not want to spend the time modifying them all now that I plan to go foundationless so I am running wax foundation as starter strips.

Can I do this now and store them for later.  Do some now for the first packages in spring and an extra box or two for expanding soon after and the rest as I need.  Or should I simply get it all done and out of the way and safely stored in a box till needed (the preferable choice since I have the time right now).

I wasn't too sure how the wax would hold up and Spring is long ways off still.  This and January are my slow months on the farm though and I am trying to take as much advantage of the flexibility as possible.

Just curious.

[TwT]

just one little question, Why would you want to go foundationless??  :? I have tried some starter strip frames last year and decided I didn't care for it, some was fully drawn but not attached to the sides or bottom and new comb like that can break when inspecting if you are not careful,,,, I have come to the conclusion that I will only use starter strips in supers for comb honey if I dont have foundation to install...

[Carriage House Farm]

For control over what goes in the hives in part.  In this day and age I question exactly what is in anything, which may sound paranoid, but quite frankly I am fed up as are the people I sell produce to.  So, if I am doing cut comb, they know it was gathered locally and not mixed with something from China.

I am not arguing organic or non-organic just knowing your food source.

In part because I have choices to make as to how I want to start.  I am going to try to go the Dee Lusby and Michael Bush route.  I am still out on the whole thing, but I figure if I do it this way, I can at least make the claim that it either works or does not.

I will be wiring a majority of the frames so I am hoping that that will help in securing the comb a bit better.  I will put some foundation in some of the frames, just not most.

I've had about a pot of coffee and I am trying to go through and make sure my Brushy mountain order is all there before I go split firewood, so I am a bit rushed now.  I hope that better explains what I am trying to do.

I am a complete newb so it may not all be the right way to go...maybe it is.  The one thing I have learned is that trying to get a good answer from a GROUP of folks is next to impossible.  I thought attending my local BeeK association would helpfilter out what I have learned and discussed in books and the internet forums like this.  All it did was prove to me that if you fill the room with 20 beekeepers you'll get 30 different opinions and experiences.  :-D

Which, ultimately, I think is healthy.  The one thing we all have in common is we like bees...from there things go in many i directions.

That said, I have also taken in what you have said to me and other folks as well over the past couple of months just as much as anyone else.

So...let me rephrase the question for you.

IF you had free time the next 50 days, would you get foundation into your frames so you were ready for Spring?  Especially if you knew you were going to busy getting produce ready late Spring in Feb, March, and April?  :)

[DennisB]

I would go ahead and spend the time doing what you want to do. If you put the frames out in the barn that is cold for a few days or so and then stick them into plastic bags for storage, you should not have any problem keeping them. People have stored comb for all these years with out any problem.

DennisB

[Robo]

so I am going to putting together about 400 frames or so and I was wondering, when I am done with that can I go on ahead and run my starter strips (I have split wedge frames and do not want to spend the time modifying them all now that I plan to go foundationless so I am running wax foundation as starter strips.

am a complete newb so it may not all be the right way to go...maybe it is.

Since you are just using starter strips,  doing it now shouldn't hurt anything.  Just remember they will be real brittle in the cold.

You have an "interesting" journey ahead of you.  I hope it works out for you.

[Jerrymac]

something I did with wedge top bars was take the wedge out melt wax onto them and then used them as the starter strip. But since you are just starting I guess you have no wax other than the foundation. But yes you can make up the wax starter strips now. One thing I would do different if I had it to do all over again, is to hold the starter strip in with melted wax instead of the wedge. Some of the strip on some frames wasn't secured enough and fell/sagged out. And yes they get brittle.

[Scadsobees]

ditto that brittle thing, make sure that you handle the wax in a nice warm room  :roll:  They may warp a little bit here and there, but if they are secured properly it shouldn't be a problem, minor adjustments before use.  Wax moths or SHB won't usually attack plain wax foundation, so they should hold up fine without any extra precautions.

Foundationless is a fun experiment on a small scale. But with 20 hives?...oh well, I suppose nobody really checks nowdays and cares if the frames are removable.... :roll:   :-P  You just have to be patient  and keep them on track.....embrace the failures and rejoice in successes of which there will be many!! :-D

Rick

[Jerrymac]

?...oh well, I suppose nobody really checks nowdays and cares if the frames are removable.... :roll:   :-P 

What? Foundationless frames are removable. They are the same frames as foundation is used in, just no foundation.

[randydrivesabus]

my bees must have gone to training sessions on the use of starter strips because they drew it out beautifully.

[Brian D. Bray]

something I did with wedge top bars was take the wedge out melt wax onto them and then used them as the starter strip. But since you are just starting I guess you have no wax other than the foundation. But yes you can make up the wax starter strips now.

I like foundationless, which includes no starter strips.  dip your wedge peice in wax and then tack it into place on its side.

One thing I would do different if I had it to do all over again, is to hold the starter strip in with melted wax instead of the wedge. Some of the strip on some frames wasn't secured enough and fell/sagged out.

Ain't we all (those of us who do strips) had that problem? 

And yes they get brittle.

Build your frames now, incert  strips in the spring when the weathers warmer and closer to use time.

[Jerrymac]

something I did with wedge top bars was take the wedge out melt wax onto them and then used them as the starter strip. But since you are just starting I guess you have no wax other than the foundation. But yes you can make up the wax starter strips now.

I like foundationless, which includes no starter strips.  dip your wedge peice in wax and then tack it into place on its side.

Yeah that's what I was trying to say. Just couldn't find the right words at the time.

[Scadsobees]

?...oh well, I suppose nobody really checks nowdays and cares if the frames are removable.... :roll:   :-P 

What? Foundationless frames are removable. They are the same frames as foundation is used in, just no foundation.

I know, it was more of a flip comment about the chances of that happening in a foundationless hive left to it's own devices....

-r

[annette]

OK, one more comment, since you and I are trying to do the same thing. I am going the same route as you and have already introduced some foundationless frames here and there into the brood supers. They have been drawn out perfectly, and very fast. The bees really love them and I feel happy for them.

I have been doing the same thing. Getting more frames ready for the spring time. Here the spring comes faster, like February. I already have a bunch of frames made up ahead of time and have placed them in big plastic storage bins. (on sale at Target)  I only have 2 hives so very easy for me.No problem with making them up a head of time, just do not move them around to much, like others have said. If you want to see the blog down below. This is one of our best beekeepers here in this forum and she has a video on how to place the starter strips into the wedges. I followed this video, and they came out perfect and very strong.  Good luck and I would like to know how things turn out, since I am in the same boat. Her video is called "How to use the wax tube fastener"

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/

Annette

[Robo]

Annette,

Don't underestimate the fact that you have drawn comb to place your foundationless frames between to act as guides.  That is why they are drawing them so nice for you.  If I understand Carriage House correctly, he is planning to start packages on just starter strips which doesn't benefit from the drawn frames as guides.  As a newbee, I wish him luck,  hope he is up for the challenge.

[annette]

Yes, you are correct in that statement.  This is a different situation than starting from scratch like Carriage House. I was under the impression, that if you placed a frame of full sheet starter strip in the center of the super, then this would act like a guide for them. I believe I got this information also from Linda's blog. Perhaps Carriage House can contact Linda and see what she says about this.

Thanks
Annette

[Scadsobees]

Annette, a full sheet will help keep them straight.  Its not a guarantee, though.

The nice thing about foundationless in the supers is that if they mess up, you can let them finish and then just crush and strain that comb out.  Not a huge loss.

If it is in the brood boxes, then it becomes a big issue if they mess it up too much.  A little bit isn't too bad, but if they get across more than 2 frame or get too wavey, you have problems. You would need to completely restrict the queen from entering it, then in 3 weeks after the brood hatches you could take it all off and perhap let the bees rob the honey before you fix the comb.

Also, if you just put a foundationless frame inbetween two drawn frames in the brood box you will most likely get a nice beautiful frame of drone comb.

Rick

[annette]

That is not a problem with the drone comb. When they make all they want, then they stop. (Per MB quote). Also it is a good time to cut out some of the drone comb and catch most of the mites.

This is all new for me too and I am reading and learning. I feel good about letting the bees draw out wax. But I am listening also to the many problems that can happen. Thanks for the information.


Annette

[Michael Bush]

>When they make all they want, then they stop. (Per MB quote).

And the research of Dr. Clarence Collison:

Levin, C.G. and C.H. Collison. 1991. The production and distribution of drone comb and brood in honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies as affected by freedom in comb construction. BeeScience 1: 203-211.

[Brian D. Bray]

This last spring I started 3 packeages on a combination of starter strips and foundationless.  Only 1 hive had to have some of the comb cut out to make it right--the other 2 did it right right from the start.  The 4th package was put on plastic frames from Mann Lake--I was forever cutting out burr, bridge, tunnel, and other kinds of comb creations and I finally added a super of foundationless and had them draw it out so they'd have enough stores for winter.

[Cindi]

Hee, hee, remember my post about the funny comb my bees had drawn, it was a real hoot and a hollar, it was interesting, and yes, they needed some correction  :) :) :)