Questions from a beginner: combs attached to inner cover, not frames

[ChalkHill]

Greetings fellow apiarists.  I am very much a beginner but also very enthusiastic.  Being the newbie that I am, I was hoping to get some advice or counsel from those with more experience.  My situation is as follows...

During the last week of March this year, my family and I discovered a swarm of bees on our northern California property.  First in a tree for day, the swarm migrated to the ground, and we saw this as a great opportunity to start a hive - both for our own sakes, but also for the bees because it was about to rain and they had already been without a hive for at least two days.  We rushed down to the local feed store and bought the bottom board, brood super, with frames, and inner and telescoping outer covers, as well as a sugar-water feeder.  I ended up scooping up the swarm along with quite a few leaves (it was unavoidable), pouring all of it into the new hive.  After a few days of wondering if they would just swarm again, it seemed as though the bees had taken to the home we provided.

The thing is, when we first put them in the hive, at the advice of the salesman from whom we bought the equipment, we removed 4 of the 10 frames, as he put it "to give them room to start out."  We now think this was terrible advice.   The remaining 6 frames were pushed to one side of the box, and instead of using them to draw out combs, the bees built their own combs from scratch, attaching them directly to the inner cover in the space where there were no frames.   After giving them a couple weeks to get themselves established, I took the outer cover off, and found it really difficult to remove the inner cover.  The reason why, is they had glued the combs not only to the inner cover, but also to the inside walls of the brood super.  Taking off the inner cover ended up breaking some of their combs, spilling a good deal of honey and even some larvae into the bottom of the box.  There was virtually no activity on the frames, though.

Rather than doing anything else and traumatizing the hive even more, I just put everything back.  We ended up buying another brood super, a queen excluder and honey super, as well as another inner cover in the hopes that they'd start expanding into more of the hive.  Since they're attached to the original inner cover, I just left it where it was, so it is now in between the two brood supers.  To encourage upward expansion, I drilled holes big enough for a queen to fit through in the original inner cover, and even cut part of it out completely, above the unused frames.   But even after almost 2 months, they have not expanded - they haven't used the frames at all, even in the lowest brood super.

Despite this, they seem very active.  They use up about 3 or 4 cups of 2:1 sugar water every day, there are constantly bees coming in with big clumps of pollen on their legs, and there always seems to be healthy activity around the entrance.  Even though I have very limited experience so far, I don't see any signs of disease or parasites either.

I have a lot of questions, but the two most important ones at this point are...
1) What should I do about the combs they've attached to the original inner cover?   I would guess I shouldn't do anything right now, since that is essentially the entirety of their hive.  Correct?   But in the long run, I'd like to be able to inspect the hive without breaking apart their combs, and put in the other 4 frames where they should have been all along.

2) Is there anything I should do to encourage them to expand into the rest of the hive?  Is it just a matter of waiting for them to get over-crowded in the part of the hive they built themselves, and get forced to expand onto the actual frames?  Should I not even bother putting the 2nd brood super and honey super on until they start using the frames in the bottom(original) brood super? 

Thanks for any answers,

-t

[ForrrestB]

You are going to have to break all of that comb off, as carefully as possible, and use rubber bands to attach it to empty frames - which you will then use to fill the empty slots in the box. 

Search for "cut out" or "cutout" in the search box, and read up on how to install comb into empty frames, maybe do a search on youtube as well...  It isn't hard, but you should do a little research first. 

The longer you wait, the worse the problem will get, best to do it ASAP.

I imagine someone else with more experience will give you some advice, but in the meantime read as much as you can, watch some videos, get familiar with how it is done.

Good luck!

[Steel Tiger]

 Get rid of the comb from the inner cover as soon as you can. If the combs are large enough, use rubber bands to secure them into frames. Put the rest of the frames into the hive and they should be all set. I don't know why anyone would suggest leaving frames out. That's asking for trouble.
 If the salesman thought the swarm was too big to fit into a single deep, he should have sold you two deeps.

 Grats on your free bees and good luck with them.

[Kathyp]

look on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jp+beeman

our very own JP and Schawee.  see what the do with the comb that they take out of structures.  do the same.  use ALL frames.  put your frames with comb in middle and empty at each side.  if there is any extra space, push frames together in middle and leave space to sides.  shouldn't be much but you don't want any space between frames.

[ChalkHill]

Thanks for the advice.  It looks like it's unanimous that I should NOT just leave it alone with the hope that they expand into the other parts of the hive.  I will definitely read up on "cutout" and watch some videos before I do it myself.  But I have to admit, I'm reluctant because I don't want to damage the hive.  I'm wary about harming bees, larvae, or worst of all, the queen while trying to rectify the problem.  I'm also the only one to directly interact with the bees, and I think it will require more than 2 hands to hold up the heavy comb-laden lid, while safely removing the combs and putting them in the empty frames.   I'm sure I'll figure something out after doing some research.  One quick question though: the combs that I remove and put in empty frames, should I leave them all in the bottom brood super, some in the bottom and some in the top brood supers, or put them all in the top brood super?    Thanks again.

-t

[Spear]

The reason that they built in the empty space and not on the frames is that you didn't put a divider board up next to the frames and dump the bees on the frames (not your fault you didn't know better, the salesman should of told you this in the first place) anyway the 'damage' is already done. As everyone has already said do a 'cutout' and put all the frames in the bottom brood box and only put the next one on once the bees have fixed the comb to the frames and drawen out some new frames. Be careful as new comb is very soft and squashes and breaks very easy (had too much experience with that myself) don't worry too much if you kill a little brood just be careful and watch for the queen. Cage her if you find her while you work and then release her back into the middle of the hive when you are done and close up. Do not disturb for at least 2 weeks!
Welcome to the steep learning curve of being a beekeeper! Have fun with your girls and good luck!

[ForrrestB]

One quick question though: the combs that I remove and put in empty frames, should I leave them all in the bottom brood super, some in the bottom and some in the top brood supers, or put them all in the top brood super?    Thanks again.

-t

I would put them all in the bottom if you are using two boxes.  When they use up the space down there they will build up into the next box...

Don't worry about harming a  bit of larvae, just be as gentle as you can, use a sharp box cutter or such to remove the comb rather than break it off, I kind of let the comb rest on the palm of my hand rather than grasp it so I don't squish the soft new wax.  And put the top of the comb to the top of the frame when you install it - the cells have an up/down orientation.  The bees with attach it securing in short order.

The queen lays upwards of 1000 eggs per day so a few damaged cells won't set them back, they are quite resilient and you will have a much easier time later if you deal with it now.  Don't worry, you can do it, I did it the first time as a brand new beekeeper, first year, cut out a hive from a dead log using nothing more than a chainsaw, some rubber bands, and knowledge shared here and on Youtube.  :)



Good luck!

[HomeSteadDreamer]

Maybe I skimmed too much....  But I didn't see any protective gear when you mentioned your purchases.  Be aware that during the cut out they will get testy so you'll want to be full suited up or be prepared for some stings.

[greenbtree]

Welcome! Here are some cutout tips from someone who has made about every mistake in the book.  As Kathyp stated, watch a bunch of JPs videos on youtube, the more the better.  Notice the following - he already has rubber bands on each end of the empty frames so he is not trying to put them on while holding a piece of comb.  He moves calmly and slowly, take your time.  YOU WILL NEED A SMOKER!  A LITTLE puff here and there will keep the girls a lot calmer. You will need a suit or at the very least a veil. A first cut out should not be done without, it is one thing you don't need to be worrying about.  If you don't have a suit, use multiple layers with duct tape at wrists, ankles, and where veil stops on torso.  In a pinch, I have fixed up helpers with vinyl window screen on a wide brimmed hat, layers, and lots of duct tape.  If you can't get a helper, maybe position a couple of sturdy objects the right distance apart so that you could hang the lid between them out in the open.  Over a sheet so if the queen does fall, you can see her.  Mainly the bees will stay on the pieces of comb as long as you move slowly.  A cheap 99 cent steak knife works great for cutting comb. There WILL be honey everywhere, have a bucket of water nearby to rinse hands and tools. Rubber dishwashing gloves work well for cutouts.  Try to avoid having honey drip all over the bees or brood. It can smother them.  It is better to sacrifice a bit of honey comb by cutting between where the honey stops and the brood starts, than to have it leak down over the face of the comb.  Any pieces of clean honey comb can be consumed by you or laid out for the bees to rob back out. (If you lay it out, put it a distance from the hive, you don't want to attract other bees to your hive.) Keep orientation of comb the same - up stays up.  Put frames of comb all together in middle in bottom deep, new frames on either side.  Good luck.

JC





 

[Joe D]

On the taking 4 of the frames out, sometimes I do that when put the swarm into a hive.  But as soon as you get them in the hive you add the rest of the frames.  As the others have said cut the comb they have built from the inner cover and put it into empty frames.  Big rubber band or string works well for that.  Put the frames with the comb between frames with foundation.  This will help them draw the comb straight.  Just think of it as an early lesson.  Good luck to you and your bees.



Joe

[ChalkHill]

Thanks again for all the information.  To those wondering about the suit and smoker, yes, I have both.  I've got a full body suit with veil and gloves, and we also have a backup veil + gloves just for when we're replacing the sugar water feeder or something simple like that.  The main reason I'm the only one who opens the hive at this point is because I have the full suit, and the other members of my family understandably don't want to get involved with something like cutting out the combs without a full suit of their own. 

At this point, I think I'm just going to join our local beekeepers society, and see if one of them might be willing to come out and help me (for some compensation of course).  I think having another pair of hands will be necessary to do this well, and if that extra pair of hands belongs to someone with experience doing this sort of thing - all the better.  I'll be continuing to research it as well.  Thanks for all your well-wishes. 

[GSF]

ChalkHill; I'm sure the mindset in Ca is different than around here. Around here we don't charge or pay for "help", it just comes with the territory. Heck, if I lived in Ca with yalls taxes I may charge something too.

Save your money and plan on making Bud7 next year. As a rookie I probably gained more hands on over there in a weekend than I would around here in a year.