Need another plan for insulating hives

[Aroc]

I know some will say I don't need to insulate, just keep wind break but where I'm at it gets cold,  real cold,  like 30-40 deg f. below zero cold for sometimes weeks at a time. 

Last year I had only one hive.  I surrounded it with straw bales on three sides then insulated with 2 inch foam board strapped on with ratchet straps.  I cut each side accordingly.  I put a piece of insulation on to of the telescoping cover and laid a piece of plywood on top of that.

This year we did the same thing but with 5 hives it was a real pain in the rear.

Any ideas of what I might do that would be easier and still offer a similar insulation value?

[Robo]

I would strongly suggest switching to polystyrene hives,  or at least with any new equipment you buy.  It will be much cheaper in the long run when you consider all the extra cost you are putting into insulating your hives.   You are doing the right thing with insulating.   A warm hive will have less condensation and burn less honey.

[little john]

In your situation, I think Robo is spot-on with regard to new purchases.

With regard to your existing kit - what the old timers used to do was make-up over-wintering crates, and erect these around pairs or quadruple hives, then pour chaff (sawdust, wood shavings etc) into the gaps between the hives and the crate sides.  More chaff over the hive tops, then a substantial cover over the whole caboodle.  Instead of chaff, you could always use sheets of expanded polystyrene of course.

The crates themselves used to spend the season as flat-packs, so they didn't take up too much room - presumably several of them could be stacked together in the one pile outdoors ?  I could dig out some pictures and other info if this kind of thing should appeal to you ...

Another option - with just a handful of hives - would be to keep them in a small shed.
LJ

[Oldbeavo]

We are running 50 Paradise compressed polystyrene hives, they wintered better than our wooden hives. They are coming into their second season.
If I was starting in bees tomorrow I would use polystyrene.
Paradise honey in Finland has a website and you can see hives in the snow.

[Robo]

The best method I have seen for insulating wooden hives is what Derek Mitchell has going in the UK.   Derek's research has shown that any air leaks significantly impact heat retention.   Here are a couple of pictures of what he refers to as "Cozies"

[Acebird]

Personally I think it is silly to insulate each individual hive when you start talking multiple hives.  When the temperature gets below 20 degrees put them in an insulated shed and heat it to 20 degrees.  You might get away with ventilation to keep the RH at 50 and a back up dehumidifier at 60.  At some point in late winter it will be hard to keep the temperature down to 20 due to the heat of the hives and their build up.  So then you take them out.
You could ask Ian Stepler on the other forum if he has any pertinent numbers to determine how much heat and moisture comes off each hive so you could size for five.
So basically you buy or build a shed that is the appropriate size for the number of hives you plan to house and insulate to your hearts content.  The insulation will not hurt the shed in the summer so you don't have to keep doing it.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Question about "polystyrene" hive bodies.  Are these hive bodies light weight, subject to wind, like say styrofoam?  Will they hold a nail or screw?  Is the material delicate compared to wood?

I have never seen one of these plastic hives so general information would be appreciated.

Aroc, yes winters are brutal in Montana, I empathize for ya.  I have seen one January in which the temperature NEVER got above zeroF the entire month.  I heard in the 1960's a storm blew in and killed the cattle standing up, their legs froze.  Temp was (negative) 43F, that is 42C below zero with high wind.

Hopefully, a shinook will come your way.  Good advice on insulation already posted.
Blessings

[Sour Kraut]

Another option - with just a handful of hives - would be to keep them in a small shed.
LJ

An open front shed with the open side facing SSE ?? ....that would shade the hives in the afternoon in the summer, yet allow the sun to strike them all day in the winter months

[Aroc]

I'm intrigued by the polystyrene hive idea.  Might be worth a closer look. 

Van,

You've asked to same questions I had.

Oh, and the worst I've seen it here was about '88 or so...-40 to -60 f. for 4 weeks.  So cold a can of oil slid out like cranberry sauce....that of course was when they had cans of oil still.

[Robo]

Question about "polystyrene" hive bodies.  Are these hive bodies light weight, subject to wind, like say styrofoam?  Will they hold a nail or screw?  Is the material delicate compared to wood?

I have been using BeeMax Poly hives for 10 years now and would never go back to wood.  I have to admit I was skeptical at first (thinking styrofoam beer coolers) but have been very pleased with them.   They are made out of very dense foam that is very hard, but yet light in weight.   For the most part they are just as robust as wood and last just as well.   One benefit (I guess you can call it that) is that if a bear gets into a hive the boxes usually split quite cleanly and can be easily glued back together with polyurethane glue.  Unlike wooden hives that are splintered mess and unsalvageable. 

They are not as robust for wax moths though.  If you forget about a box and wax moths destroy it,  they will tunnel through the ploy like swiss cheese.   Acrobat ants will do the same.

I have tried Lyson, Paradise, and Superior (Paradise knock-off)  but still find the BeeMax my favorite.  Also prefer the BeeMax nucs. Second choice would be Lyson.   I still use wooden honey supers and they work well with BeeMax and Lyson.   The Paradise and Superior have no bee space on top so they are most likely not compatible with any equipment you already have,  where the BeeMax can be easily interchanged with woodenware.

They will consume about 1/3 of the stores of equivalent wooden hives if you do not leave any ventilation holes (they don't need it).  Also great for early brood build up. 

[little john]

I think Brian is basically right about a shed being more appropriate to house multiple hives, but I guess for many people building a shed appears more challenging/difficult/expensive than strapping a few sheets of polystyrene around individual boxes.

Another option - with just a handful of hives - would be to keep them in a small shed.

An open front shed with the open side facing SSE ?? ....that would shade the hives in the afternoon in the summer, yet allow the sun to strike them all day in the winter months

I think there's the kernel of a workable idea there.  The only significant difference between the over-wintering packing crates that the old-timers used to use, and a shed - is in the height.  Humans need 6'6" internal height for access, whereas beehives only need - what ? - 2-3 feet.

So - how about a 'packing case' with a removable front ?  This front being attached to the side panels with s/s clips (ex-China, cheap enough), and having 'gun-ports' located to line-up with each hive entrance.  These hives (say, 4) being in one row (facing S-S/E), rather than as in the graphic which follows.

With a removable roof, hives could be accessed from above during winter for the emergency topping-up of stores, and for inspections and other major work during the season - if the sides of this crate were fitted with small wheels at the rear, the front could then be detached with the remaining protective structure lifted up 'wheel-barrow style', and moved backwards to allow full access to the boxes.  All woodwork could be generously lined with polystyrene.

In case anyone doesn't know what a over-wintering packing-case looked like - here's a screen-grab from Phillips', 'Preparation for Outdoor Wintering', 1918:



I'm fairly optimistic that something along these lines could provide a useful working method for those who already have wooden boxes in areas with severe winters.

LJ

[Acebird]

I'm fairly optimistic that something along these lines could provide a useful working method for those who already have wooden boxes in areas with severe winters.

Combine this idea with what Robo showed making a bigger insulating box.  The nut to crack in both cases is dealing with moisture venting and not making the insulation useless.  Even on the single hive insulating box it might be an issue.
How cheaply can you make a motorized vent controlled by a humidistat?

[Robo]

The nut to crack in both cases is dealing with moisture venting and not making the insulation useless.  Even on the single hive insulating box it might be an issue.
How cheaply can you make a motorized vent controlled by a humidistat?

With a well insulated hive moisture is not a problem.   Warm air can hold a lot more moisture than cold air, which is better for their respiratory system and brood rearing.  Where is the moisture coming from?  It is a byproduct of honey consumption.  With well insulated hives honey consumption is much less which means much less water.   The key is the hives need to be sealed tight with just a bottom entrance.   I have not provided any ventilation in my poly hives for years and have not had a single moisture issue.   

[Acebird]

Each hive will expel 5 gal of water over the winter season.  That is about 52 pounds of honey consumed.  If the hive consumes more than 52 then you will get more water.  With a wide open entrance that water is going out the entrance.  If you put 5 hives under styro you are going to get a lot of water to get rid of.

[Aroc]

I've checked a with a supplier and a couple local beeks about polystyrene hives.  They all said the same thing.   They sweat real bad. 

Might have something to do with the extreme cold we can get here. 

I might still try one or two to see for myself.  Maybe a nuc if something like that is available.

[Robo]

They sweat real bad. 

Are they providing upper ventilation?   Then yes they will.

You have to look no further than a wild bee tree to see how wrong beekeepers have it.    We tend to get blinded by tradition.

[BeeMaster2]

Keep in mind, bees depend on the sweating on the walls, during the winter, for their source of water. What you do not want is cold condensation dripping down on the cluster.
Jim

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Quote from Mr. Robo. "They will consume about 1/3 of the stores of equivalent wooden hives if you do not leave any ventilation holes (they don't need it).

That's quite an impressive statement, caught my eye.  Ventilation question:  Will screened bottom boards work and achieve the same 1/3 store consumption?  I am considering purchase of the plastic hives you text about.

Due to small hive beetles, I run screened bottom boards with diatomaceous earth, baited with sub. pollen?  I can't emphasize enough the threat of shb in my area, N. Arkansas, so screened bottom boards are a must, to me.  Fellow beeks in this area, this summer, 2017, lost 20% to 50% of hives to shb.  I did not lose a single hive.
Blessings .

[Acebird]

I have had SHB problems and I do run SBB.  What is it that you think SBB help for SHB?  My area is not noted for problems with SHB.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Mr. Ace, I bait my sbb with pollen substitute, about 1 inch size and surround the bait with diatomaceous earth on the bottom board.   Bees cannot get to the bait do to the screen.  I realize Ace, you understand, I  am explaining to newbies.
Blessing

[Acebird]

Well that is a novel idea.  I have screen bottom boards so do you think I could put a slug of pollen sub in the tray underneath dusted with DE?

[paus]

Diatomaceous earth may work in place of cooking oil, much easier to dispose of it than a thick gooey mess of oil, dead SHB and SHB larva.  I was thinking of diluting the thick oil I strained with diesel but I thought twice, nope not a good idea.  I am going to try diatomaceous earth in some oil pans, after cleaning them, and see if there are as many dead SHB as in oil pans.  I lifted my hives near my home this afternoon and all are heavy but one, good shape for winter.

[paus]

The pollen sub is what made me start the previous post and I forgot,  Yep the pollen sub is going in tomorrow.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yes, Ace, ya know beetles luv sub pollen.  I have used oil in the past on sbb, turned into a complete mess.  The diaton earth has worked very well for me.  Once a shb touches the powder, the beetle will die on the bottom board so one can see progress

Diatomaceous earth is directly eaten, sold in health food stores, by some folks, not me.  I am just saying the product is safe for humans, NOT recommending to eat the stuff.
Blessings

[Acebird]

It is also used in filtration for pools so it is easy to get.

[Robo]

That's quite an impressive statement, caught my eye.  Ventilation question:  Will screened bottom boards work and achieve the same 1/3 store consumption?  I am considering purchase of the plastic hives you text about.

As the saying goes, "Your mileage may vary".   I'm thinking I may see a bigger benefit than you as my climate is a lot colder than yours so I have a lot more opportunity to gain.   

With that said,  I still think you will notice a difference even with screened bottom boards as long as you eliminate any other ventilation.  The bell jar principle is the key.  The ideal configuration is a round entrance 5-6 inches below the cluster which creates hydraulic resistance to the heat loss.  However in your climate I don't think it is that critical.

[Acebird]

The bell jar principle is the key.  The ideal configuration is a round entrance 5-6 inches below the cluster which creates hydraulic resistance to the heat loss. 

Sealey seems to think natural hives have their entrance above the bottom.

[little john]

Sealey " ... inspected 49 entrances in 33 nests.  Knotholes (56%), tree cracks (32%) and holes among roots (12%) formed entrances. Most nests (79 %) had one entrance. The others (21%) had up to 5 entrance holes."

What Sealey did do (in 'The Nest of the Honey Bee', Sealey and Morse, 1976), was to present an idealised diagram of a tree nest, which many people have subsequently erroneously assumed to be some kind of blueprint from which to design beehives.

Sealey writes: "Nest entrances tended to be near the nest bottom. (29 entrances from 20 nests)(*). This predominance of bottom entrances is highly improbable (P <0.002) assuming entrance position relative to the cavity is random(**).  This non-random distribution can be explained in two ways. Either honey bees select cavities with bottom entrances, or fungal decay, which probably produces most tree cavities, tends to expand upward from its entry point into a tree." (***)

(*) Eh ?  Why not analyse the 49 entrances in 33 nests as before ?
(**) which it isn't - ask any tree surgeon.
(***) which is exactly the case.  ALL cavities created by wet rot due to rain-water ingress will develop openings towards the bottom, as wood rot develops much faster at the upper surface of the cavity where conditions are damp, but not flooded as tends to occur at the bottom of the cavity.

You might find the following of some relevance to this topic:

"This dampness which causes what may be called a rot among the bees is one of the worst enemies with which the Apiarian in a cold climate, has to contend, as it weakens or destroys many of his best colonies. No extreme of cold ever experienced in latitudes where bees flourish, can destroy a strong colony well supplied with honey, except indirectly, by confining them to empty combs. They will survive our coldest winters, in thin hives raised on blocks to give a  freer admission of air, or even in suspended hives, without any bottom-board at  all.  Indeed, in cold weather, a very free admission of air is necessary in such  hives, to prevent the otherwise ruinous effects of frozen moisture; and hence the common remark that bees require as much or more air in winter than in summer."  Hive and the Honey Bee, Langstroth, 1853, p.117

LJ

[Bush_84]

I?ll throw my two cents in. I have wintered bees in a garden shed for two years. I have had 100% survival rate. This winter will test that as I have a couple of light Nucs. Anyways...it?s insulated and vented. I used dryer vents to vent. One of them has an in-line fan that I run a couple of times per day. The ducts have a couple of 90degree turns to avoid light pollution. I use an oil filled radiator heater attached to a thermocube, which keeps temps between 35-45 f. If the weather warms enough in feb or March I open the doors to let them have heir cleansing flights. This method has served me well and I?d even go as far as saying that it?s the best beekeeping management decision I?ve ever made.

[BeeMaster2]

Bush,
Congratulations, well done. Dadant tried to keep his bees in a shed and lost almost every one.
Jim

[Acebird]

This method has served me well and I?d even go as far as saying that it?s the best beekeeping management decision I?ve ever made.

How big is your shed and how many hives do you overwinter?

[Yukon Bees]

I have run Paradise Poly hives in the Yukon for the past 3 years with great success. I leave my bottom screen board open but block off the side opening with styrofoam. I installed some sensors (Temp/Humidity) this summer so I am comparing my values with another local beekeeper who runs insulated wood hives.
Observations so far: (Coldest Temp so far this winter is -36C)
Wood Vs Poly Hives Comparison
-Top Box Humidity levels very similar
-Lower Box Humidity Levels 15% lower in Poly
-Top Box Vs Lower Box Delta Temps (Wood ~20C) (Poly ~10C) - Notice much lower evening temps in Mt Lorne
- Little temp fluctuations in the poly hive is likely the tightening of the cluster as the temperature drops over night from 10PM to 6AM
-Notice the temp spike on Nov 22 - That's me cleaning out my top and bottom entrance (bees heat up by 10C). Now I know why it is recommended not to tap the hive in winter to see if they are still alive. Bees were present at the top entrance and lower entrance when I cleaned them out (outside temp was
-25C) telling me the cluster wasn't very tight and bees are still able to travel up and down the hive. As mentioned before 2 more sensors would be required to understand hive wall temps (cluster fringe temps).

[BeeMaster2]

Yukon,
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Let us know what the spring results are.
Jim

[Acebird]

Humidity is very hard to measure unless you have a clean environment.  Looks like some tanked out reading (straight lines).  It would help the American folks if you could pasted a Fahrenheit scale on the graph.

[Yukon Bees]

Here is a reference... http://www.thecalculatorsite.com/images/articles/fahrenheit-to-celsius/thermometer-readings.jpg

The plots are x-y charts based on hourly data. Wood top box just had it's sensor added a couple of weeks ago.

[Bush_84]

This method has served me well and I?d even go as far as saying that it?s the best beekeeping management decision I?ve ever made.

How big is your shed and how many hives do you overwinter?

While o have never officially measured it I?d guess 8x10. So not a huge space but a huge space is not needed. I have had 3-4 most years. I have 10 this year.

[little john]

This method has served me well and I?d even go as far as saying that it?s the best beekeeping management decision I?ve ever made.

How big is your shed and how many hives do you overwinter?

While o have never officially measured it I?d guess 8x10. So not a huge space but a huge space is not needed. I have had 3-4 most years. I have 10 this year.

You know, it may just be the case that you're doing something very prudent and sensible to ensure colony survival, other than installing them within your shed set-up - for it's possible that you may be a more skillful beekeeper than you realise.

Should you ever feel up to running an experiment, it would be interesting to see how one or two of your colonies fared if kept outside of the shed, but given a modest amount of conventional passive protection instead, an approach which scientists call 'testing the null hypothesis'.

LJ

[Michael Bush]

Put all the hives up against each other.  Then insulate the group with your straw bales.

[Bush_84]

This method has served me well and I?d even go as far as saying that it?s the best beekeeping management decision I?ve ever made.

How big is your shed and how many hives do you overwinter?

While o have never officially measured it I?d guess 8x10. So not a huge space but a huge space is not needed. I have had 3-4 most years. I have 10 this year.

You know, it may just be the case that you're doing something very prudent and sensible to ensure colony survival, other than installing them within your shed set-up - for it's possible that you may be a more skillful beekeeper than you realise.

Should you ever feel up to running an experiment, it would be interesting to see how one or two of your colonies fared if kept outside of the shed, but given a modest amount of conventional passive protection instead, an approach which scientists call 'testing the null hypothesis'.

LJ

If my operation ever outgrew my shed I?d be all in for something like that. I guess I have been gradually growing as a beekeeper but I never had much luck in my Minnesota winters until I put bees in a shed. Keep in mind however that Minnesota has some of the worst winters in the USA. These interventions would not be needed for much of the rest of our country. I moved to my current house about 3-4 years ago and bees were outside at my old place. Once I moved here things have been different.

Here is my thought on my winter weather according to my experience and what I?ve read. Most say cold won?t kill bees but moisture will. I have cold and dry winters. I mountain cam all my hives so most moisture gets absorbed by the sugar. I still use an upper entrance but wouldn?t if I kept bees outside. So moisture is not a concern. Cold is. My reading has revealed that 35-45 is the sweet spot. A litttle bit colder wouldn?t really do much harm but prolonged cold will. Bees have a shorter summer lifespan due to increased workload. Colder temps require increased work from bees to stay warm. This results in increase honey consumption and bee mortality as increased physical stress results in shorter life span. Outside my strong hives were left with little honey and small clusters come March. A one week subzero freeze would finish them off. In my shed I have friggin drones in March. My weaker hives are still weaker but survive. Why? They have decreased winter decline and honey to get the,pm through until summer.

So excessive?  Ya probably but it has worked thus far.