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Offline BeeMaster2

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Not good news
« on: March 12, 2023, 02:39:54 pm »

It's not exactly news that bee populations have been suffering, especially those that live in or nearby human-populated areas.
But according to a new long-term study, published in the journal Current Biology, even pollinators that live in remote, human-free forests, away from humans and aren't directly exposed to harmful behaviors like chemical pesticide use and habitat destruction, are disappearing in pretty horrifying numbers ? yet another troubling sign that our much-needed pollinators are disappearing at alarming rates.
Bees, as The Bee Conservancy puts it, "lie at the heart of our survival." Human agricultural processes rely on these precious pollinators, which play a critical role in growing the crops that we and our livestock eat; they play a similarly critical role in natural food systems, too.
In short, if we lose bees, we lose a lot of plants, which means that we lose a lot of animals, habitats, and crops in turn. Not good.
The 15-year study, which concluded last year, closely tracked bee and butterfly populations in three different remote, forested areas in northern Georgia's Oconee National Forest.
After analyzing the data, the researchers were able to conclude that roughly 62.5 percent of the original bee population was lost, while butterfly populations shrank by a similarly shocking 57.6 percent.
The number of bee species dropped too, with the area losing 39 percent of its species biodiversity.
"Our results suggest," the study's authors warn, "that sharp declines in pollinators may not be limited to areas experiencing direct anthropogenic disturbances."
Pollination Assassination
Though there's no clear-cut explanation for why these remote populations are shrinking, the researchers did present a few hypotheticals. For instance, the presence of invasive species, notably an invasive wood-nesting ant, may be damaging to the area's carpenter bee population.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the researchers listed "increasing minimum temperatures" ? in other words, climate change ? as the other likely culprit for the pollinators' troubling plight. And considering that we don't exactly have that problem under control, it's hard to see a scenario where the bees and butterflies of the region recover in significant numbers, at least not in the short term.
It is worth noting that above-ground nesting bees fared worse than below-ground nesters, though all populations, as noted by the researchers, showed a sharp decline.
Again, it's not surprising news ? but for the worst of reasons.
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2023, 02:46:43 pm »
Good post Jim.  Thanks for the information.
👍🏻

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Bill Murray

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2023, 03:34:41 pm »
Well just my opinion. If anybody with any clout was really serious about the health of honeybees and other pollinators
1) honeybees couldn?t be moved from original yards, due to spillover and spillback of pathogens/ parasites, and out competing local species.

2) No move of bumblebees. Same reason.

Spillover/spillback has been well documented for over 20 years.

3) everyone would treat at the same time with the same product, Or there would be no treatments of any kind for varroa.

4) All global moving of Honey/Bumblebees would be terminated. Just look how easily the COVID spread.

5) Outlaw lawncutting, pesticides detrimental to pollinators, and do something (???)  about the loss of habitats for local species.

Again just my opinion Im not a scientist or the king.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2023, 05:05:20 pm »
Wow, that's terrible.  :sad:
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline max2

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2023, 02:13:43 am »
Hi Jim,
would you have a link for the article?
thanks
max

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2023, 02:27:21 am »
Max try this one.

Phillip

BAD NEWS: BEES ARE DYING AT A SHOCKING RATE
THIS ISN'T GOOD AT ALL.

https://futurism.com/the-byte/bees-dying-shocking-rate
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2023, 06:53:37 am »
Bees survived THE ice age and several mini ice ages.  Luckily for us we had a lot of global warming after those.  The climate changes in the past have been extreme.  No extreme climate change is taking place right now.  Since plants and pollinators are closely tied together, maybe we should consider that many plants are on the verge of CO2 dearth.  If CO2 drops those plants will die and they are already not doing as well as they have in the past when we had more CO2.  We should try to triple the amount of CO2 if we can.  It would do the plants, and therefore the pollinators a lot of good.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2023, 08:12:00 am »
Thanks Ben, that is the correct link.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline max2

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2023, 08:26:50 am »
Bees survived THE ice age and several mini ice ages.  Luckily for us we had a lot of global warming after those.  The climate changes in the past have been extreme.  No extreme climate change is taking place right now.  Since plants and pollinators are closely tied together, maybe we should consider that many plants are on the verge of CO2 dearth.  If CO2 drops those plants will die and they are already not doing as well as they have in the past when we had more CO2.  We should try to triple the amount of CO2 if we can.  It would do the plants, and therefore the pollinators a lot of good.
Hi Michael,
our CO 2 level at the moment on planet earth is around 420ppm.
Untill the the mid 1800's ( I was not around) it was around 280ppm and , so i understand, plants and insects did quite well.
How would " triple", as you suggest, do the plants, insects, us...and good?

Offline Acebird

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2023, 08:32:35 am »
We all know extreme weather can affect the survival of a colony.  Only some of us know what is causing the extreme weather or are willing to own up to it.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2023, 08:47:39 am »
Try looking up greenhouses pumping in CO2.  at 0.12% plants thrive.  At .04% (the actual percentage currently) they do not thrive, but they do survive.  Much experimentation has gone into this.  This is what we call "actual Science".
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2023, 11:13:39 am »
Wow, that's terrible.  :sad:

Member Im not sure if your response was to the Original Post or to Bills' post. But Bills' reply makes sense to me as the best shot, though it might not be Constitutional for we in America... :shocked:  :grin: For our friends in other countries? I do not know. 

Phillip
Yeah, I was referring to Jim's original post, particularly the percent reduction is what struck me.  Bill's reply isn't terrible, although it is rather tyrannical.  :cheesy:
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2023, 11:57:19 am »
I'll take the contrarian seat, as usual. :grin:

This is one study in one area.  Additionally, we don't know if this kind of thing is cyclical.  When everyone panicked about CCD, we found 100+ year old reports of the same kind of thing happening before. 

Everybody and their mother is out to "save the bees".  I have a neighbor (relative term) that put 40 hives on his place last year and plans to double that this year.  We are a small town and around us, much is forested.  Other than wildflowers in spring and gardens, there's not a lot of crop diversity or availability for pollinators.  In my little space, I found that about 7 hives did well and gave me excess honey.
Now in our town area, we have hives all over the place and several are large endeavors.  More bees are great until you are either not managing them, or you have pushed out other pollinators.  I used to have several types of bees here in addition to my honeybees.  Last year, not so many.  After 80 honeybee hives down the way?  The other pollinators won't have much of a chance. 

Is there a natural increase and decrease in pollinators?  Do they regulate their own numbers according to some thing of which we are not aware?  We don't have enough data over a long enough period to know that.

The numbers might be correct, but the reasons may or may not be earth shattering  :wink:

Missed you guys...Lol

Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2023, 12:01:39 pm »
We missed you Kathy!

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2023, 12:22:15 pm »
I'll take the contrarian seat, as usual. :grin:

This is one study in one area.  Additionally, we don't know if this kind of thing is cyclical.  When everyone panicked about CCD, we found 100+ year old reports of the same kind of thing happening before. 

Everybody and their mother is out to "save the bees".  I have a neighbor (relative term) that put 40 hives on his place last year and plans to double that this year.  We are a small town and around us, much is forested.  Other than wildflowers in spring and gardens, there's not a lot of crop diversity or availability for pollinators.  In my little space, I found that about 7 hives did well and gave me excess honey.
Now in our town area, we have hives all over the place and several are large endeavors.  More bees are great until you are either not managing them, or you have pushed out other pollinators.  I used to have several types of bees here in addition to my honeybees.  Last year, not so many.  After 80 honeybee hives down the way?  The other pollinators won't have much of a chance. 

Is there a natural increase and decrease in pollinators?  Do they regulate their own numbers according to some thing of which we are not aware?  We don't have enough data over a long enough period to know that.

The numbers might be correct, but the reasons may or may not be earth shattering  :wink:

Missed you guys...Lol
To me the loss in biodiversity is more concerning than the loss in the number of individuals.  As you say, our baseline data on insect populations is sketchy at best.  So much of the "save the bees" campaign is misdirected in my opinion.  Making our lawns and gardens safe for pollinators, and really all insects, is much more beneficial for both us and the environment at large than haphazardly and irresponsibly putting honey bees hives everywhere.  Keeping bees is no more or less environmentally friendly than keeping any other livestock, assuming that both the bees and the other livestock are being managed in a way that is responsible.           
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2023, 01:29:28 pm »
"Making our lawns and gardens safe for pollinators, and really all insects, is much more beneficial for both us and the environment"

Reagan, I will add crops to lawns and gardens as well, as I credit that to you, as I feel like that was your intention also.. If not please correct me my friend.

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2023, 02:28:41 pm »
"Making our lawns and gardens safe for pollinators, and really all insects, is much more beneficial for both us and the environment"

Reagan, I will add crops to lawns and gardens as well, as I credit that to you, as I feel like that was your intention also.. If not please correct me my friend.

Phillip
Certainly, although big ag is a whole other conversation really. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline beesnweeds

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2023, 06:50:41 pm »
Its not just bees all insects are in decline.  Mostly due to the effort to save the environment.  Laws forcing us to use and accept new products like LED lights are doing way more harm than good without having been tested first.  They attract, disorient, and kill insects far more than traditional bulbs.  If one LED is a fraction of the cost to power then traditional light bulbs, then why not add extra?  Homes and businesses are adding blinding LED lights like crazy.  I doubt anything will be done about it. 
 
Worse news:
https://www.ceh.ac.uk/press/LED-streetlights-reduce-insect-populations-50-percent


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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2023, 08:11:04 pm »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline max2

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Re: Not good news
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2023, 05:19:12 am »
Try looking up greenhouses pumping in CO2.  at 0.12% plants thrive.  At .04% (the actual percentage currently) they do not thrive, but they do survive.  Much experimentation has gone into this.  This is what we call "actual Science".
Michael, the planet is NOT a greenhouse. Not yet.
If CO2 would double we would have massive increases in temperatures leading to many deaths...ice melting...glacier disapearing even faster...sea levels rising.
Not the type of scenario i would wish on to my grandchildren