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Author Topic: Oxalic acid and warre floor  (Read 3202 times)

Offline Bush_84

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Oxalic acid and warre floor
« on: January 07, 2018, 10:39:27 pm »
Hello all. Thinking about getting into oxalic acid treatments. I have a few questions for those who have experience. I made a few standard Lang floors but found the warre style to be easy to work with and simplistic in design. So that?s all I use, except for Nucs. I have used a simple 3/4? hole drilled in the face.

So you can see why I?m a little hesitant to invest the money in buying a vaporizer if I don?t have a way to administer it. I?m thinking that the warre floors would probably work ok but I don?t want to buy a unit and learn the hard way.

Has anybody read about the foggers? 
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline little john

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2018, 11:13:16 am »
There are several styles of vapouriser currently on the market, with the most well-known of these being the Varrox(tm) which was designed for use with the wide entrance slots fitted to most conventional mass-produced beehives.  However, there are several other designs more suited to injecting OA directly into the beehive via holes in the box sides.

Perhaps the most ingenious of these is the Sublimox(tm).  This design is both the simplest I've yet seen, and is fast in use, taking perhaps only 15-30 seconds for each application.  If you 'do a Google' for "the apiarist sublimox", Google will return several links to informative articles written by fatshark.

Do be aware however that there are two 'negatives' regarding the Sublimox. 
The first is the need for a mains voltage supply.  In apiaries such as my own this doesn't present much of a problem as this can easily be solved by very long extension leads.  In out apiaries there would clearly be a need for a suitcase-style generator or substantial (vehicle) battery inverter.  The second issue is the very high purchase price of the Sublimox - with the US price being somewhere around the $450-$500 mark.

I've been so impressed by the simplicity of this design that I'm currently working on a DIY version.  It'll be of much cruder construction, but shouldn't cost more than $20 to make, providing a person has access to MIG-welding equipment.

LJ



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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2018, 04:33:19 pm »
Lil John, as you may or may not know, oxalic acid converts to Formic acid IF the oxalic acid obtains to much heat.  Do it yourself is fine if you can closely control the temp.

I use varrox, but as stated, an opening is required of about 4 inches by say 5/8 yon 3/4 inche.  I use Lang 10 frame with screened bottoms so I have standard Lang opening for ventilation.

ventilation::::  to this day, I do not understand proper ventilation of a bee hive.  I have read every article I can get my hands on.  However I see opinion and not bonafide facts.

One must remember the words of Robo, not a quote, but Robo stated: one has only to look at a feral hives in a natural setting to understand ventilation of honey bees.   Well, the administrator has a point, the hives maintained by Mother Nature that I have seen have one opening, some at ground level, some 20 ft up in the tree. 

Robo made a good point, so to this day, I am confused about proper ventilation of a bee hive.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2018, 04:58:16 pm »
The provap 110 looks like a fantastic product that would suit my needs well except for the $450 price tag lol. With further research it looks like oxalis acid can be administered either on top of a hive or in the entrance. I may just buy one of the cheaper ones and make a shim specifically for this purpose.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2018, 06:32:25 pm »
Yes, Bush, I looked at the provap: point and shoot.  Sounds like an easy thing to do, 20 seconds per hive is impressive....  Do you have other beeks in your area that might be willing to share cost?  Or maybe your local bee club would consider cost share?  Good luck.

Offline little john

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 06:34:27 pm »
one has only to look at a feral hives in a natural setting to understand ventilation of honey bees.  

Hi Van - there's a huge assumption implicit in the above: that the tree cavity represents ideal conditions for the honey bee.  I have even heard people who really ought to know better suggest that the honeybee has actually evolved to match tree cavity conditions, and thus these ought to then provide a template for beehive design.  But as you rightly say, some cavities are at ground level, some are much higher up - some have single openings, some multiple, some even have huge splits in them from top to bottom.

These are some of my thoughts on this particular issue:
a) Tree cavities, both in their location and size, always result from chance events (such as forest fire, deer damage, falling trees ripping-off limbs and so forth) which have caused bark injuries which can (but not always) result in the subsequent rotting of heartwood which then progressively enlarges by fungal and microbial action to become a cavity.
Evolutionary adaption on the other hand requires a fixed or very nearly constant parameter to provide a stable target to evolve towards.  A species simply cannot adapt towards a target which has random or frequently changing features.

b) Prior to human dominance of the Natural World, there were precious few cavities in existence other than cavities within trees - thus it must always have been a case of 'Hobson's Choice' (i.e. no choice at all) regarding where to set up home - it was either utilise any unoccupied tree cavity on offer, or do without.

c) Evolutionary adaptation towards one particular parameter quite often renders the organism less fitted towards another parameter.  Thus the giraffe is better fitted to browse tree leaves at height (giving an advantage in that direction), but which renders it less fitted to browse grasses at ground level.  It can do so, certainly - but far less well than (say) an antelope.  The honeybee - despite whatever adaptation may or may not have occurred to it over the millennia, has retained an impressive flexibility in adjusting to almost any size or type of cavity it stumbles across.  This suggests to me that the so-called 'Natural' tree cavity (which is anything but 'natural' in the sense of being present in All trees and at All times) is seen by the honeybee as but one possible accommodation option available to it.

So - I would suggest that any thoughts of 'the tree cavity' providing some gold-plated insight into beehive ventilation or insulation requirements is just so much wishful thinking, and demonstrates a failure to understand the core principles of evolutionary adaptation.  In my opinion, of course.
LJ
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2018, 07:09:35 pm »
Your point is very well stated, LJ.  Before I got into beekeeping, there was a colony near my house that was in the open on the bottom of a limb on an oak tree for about four years.  Since it was directly over a sidewalk, I suspect it was destroyed, though I hope it was removed.  The point being that I suspect that in milder climates, such as Egypt, the feral bees lived without cavities in trees.  Note the cliff-hanging honey bees we've seen in U-tube videos.
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2018, 12:29:47 am »
(So - I would suggest that any thoughts of 'the tree cavity' providing some gold-plated insight into beehive ventilation or insulation requirements is just so much wishful thinking, and demonstrates a failure to understand the core principles of evolutionary adaptation.  In my opinion, of course.)

Lil John, very well written as usual.

The core principles of evolutionary adaptation to me is simply defined as : increase in populations, thriving.  Well, I don?t know about a gold plated insite, however for thousands of years the tree hollow has worked.  Many with only a single entrance, whereas trees with multiple entrances were available but not utilized as often as single entrance as noted by my personal observations.  These bees adapted, maybe due to the fact the tree would work, as stated over thousands of years.  When I look at evolutionary adaptations I look at population increase or decrease.  If the population is increasing and thriving then this increase is noted to me as positive adaptation.

If you are referring to physical change, phenotypicly, Darwinism, that is, then we are on different pages.  Darwin had tunnel vision.  He could see a turtle on one island with long neck length to reach the higher vegation whereas on adjacent islands the vegation was lower thus turtles had shorter necks.  Then walla, a book was born of how the world was created and was made with the basis of a turtle neck length.  Darwin was short a few cookies.  There is a lot of things your professors did not tell you about mutations and Darwinism.  Ok there were a few other critters Darwin noted with unique adaptations.

Darwin new nothing of mutations and selection.  When we address evolutionary adaptations we can see these changes in the DNA.  In fact DNA is genesis of adaptations and basis of study.  Darwin strictly looked at phenotypic expressions and he actually believed he solved the questions of life, all life on planet earth.  Natural selection is the basis of life.  If the bees thrive, increase, prosper the they have evolved positively, naturally.  Of course I would pay attention to this.
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2018, 10:59:23 am »
My Lang hives all have bottom boards with bottom entrances shallower than the norm so my cheap Russian OA vaporizer does not fit through the entrance slot .  Seems common practice around here..  .  So what I did was cut a notch in a couple of my feeding shims so that I can use my vaporizer from the top.  The OA unit operates just fine this way.


I suppose it is debatable whether vaporizing (dusting, Mr. LJ) from the top or the bottom is more effective, but as of today, I still have 3:3 hives alive.
Winter is coming.

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Offline little john

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2018, 11:49:53 am »
Hi Van - the key word for me in all of this is 'advantage'.  A chance DNA mutation producing some physical change (at a biochemical level), which is then outwardly expressed in either physical or behavioural form, which then confers a survival advantage to those possessing that mutation, at the expense of those without it - such that one group within an area flourishes in numbers, whilst those others competing for the same resources decline as a result.

I used the example of the giraffe's neck simply as a classic example - but I agree with you - there are huge holes in Darwin's theory (which was actually the brainchild of his grandfather, Erasmus), such as the embryonic wing.  Until a wing is fully formed, complete with blood supply, muscles, nerves, and some means of coordinating all of these into a highly efficient working appendage, the undeveloped wing will function as an incumbrance - i.e. constituting a negative advantage - and so certainly in this case any theory of progressive physical adaptation falls upon stony ground. 

But in general terms, I think Darwin's theory represents a pretty good attempt at explaining an otherwise unfathomable phenomenon; that of how so many different species - of both plant and animal - with almost identical biochemistry (not that he knew that, of course) came into being. 


Staying with the tree cavity - some people have observed bees living in tree cavities and at once began talking in terms of bees having chosen to live in those cavities.  But unless evidence can be provided regarding nearby tree cavities which the bees have not occupied, it is clearly nonsense to talk of any 'choice' having been made.

Afaik, no experiment has ever been conducted where bees are given a choice between occupying a range of shapes and sizes of tree cavities interspersed with a variety of man-made beehives, all set at various heights and so forth.  Such an experiment might prove very enlightening.
'best
LJ
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Offline little john

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2018, 12:00:56 pm »
I suppose it is debatable whether vaporizing (dusting, Mr. LJ) from the top or the bottom is more effective, but as of today, I still have 3:3 hives alive.

A commercial beekeeper friend of mine who keeps hives in the Dartmoor/ Exmoor area of Britain (close to where Brother Adam used to operate) swears by injecting OA at the top - which makes sense, as the cloud of dust is heavier than air and so will tend to slowly float downwards as the propellent air begins to cool.
LJ
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2018, 02:32:40 pm »
Buddy Lil John, I am still convinced the words of Robo are applicatable, most noteworthy (that one needs to look no further than a natural hive in nature).  I agree LJ, I have no way to prove that a specific bee tree was chosen, rather may be consequence.  We are both scientist, I learned long ago that one can get so caught up in the means that we lose sight of the objective.  Robo was directing us back to the objective of ventilation and simple means of Mother Nature as a guide or reference to the understanding of hive ventilation.  We have to give Mother Nature, or natural setting a basis in our attempts to manipulate the environment.

In other words my good Buddy across the pond, stop acting like a hillbilly and go study a natural hive in a real tree.  Most of the time you will see one opening and functionality.

May your bees prosper LJ.
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Offline texanbelchers

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2018, 02:53:51 pm »
I am not worthy of jumping into such a discussion, but I need to interject a question.  Isn't any hive location "chosen" by the colony?  They would always have an option to settle in an open air location.

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2018, 05:10:58 pm »
Yes, Texas you are.  By location that makes you a step above of me, I?m just an old sinner, I am.  A beautiful state, Texas is.

The question is ?is a beehive location chosen due to fulfilling perfect hive needs or is a tree utilized by a hive due to limited resources, no other choices other than a tree.   In other words, if bees were presented with options: a vented Lang box, a tree, a crevice in a rock cliff, styrofoam hive body, different types of wood for hive bodies, on and on with almost endless possibilities, one cannot say for certain which object the bees would choose, as LJ correctly stated there are no studies.
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Offline little john

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2018, 05:56:16 pm »
Hi TexanB
Well - I can't agree with the "not worthy" bit - but yes, they do indeed select where they set up home. Which is why I think an experiment offering both natural and man-made cavities and seeing which they choose would be most interesting.

One of the characteristics of apis mellifera is that they are - providing conditions allow it - a cavity-dwelling species.  They will indeed set up home under a thick branch or similar in the wild if they cannot find a suitable cavity.  That suggests to me that their primary concern is in gaining some protection from the weather - but whether they survive in that setting away from the tropics is of course a different matter.
LJ
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Offline little john

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2018, 06:02:40 pm »
In other words my good Buddy across the pond, stop acting like a hillbilly and go study a natural hive in a real tree.  Most of the time you will see one opening and functionality.

Hang on Van - you are the one who wrote:
Quote
"to this day, I do not understand proper ventilation of a bee hive.  I have read every article I can get my hands on.  However I see opinion and not bonafide facts. [...] Robo made a good point, so to this day, I am confused about proper ventilation of a bee hive." 

So - it is yourself who has issues about tree cavities viz-a-viz beehives, and not me.  I have zero motivation to study tree cavities as this isn't something which particularly interests me (any more) - it is yourself who has this interest.  I simply offered my thoughts on the matter with a view towards perhaps helping to solve your confusion - but you seem to have already decided that Robo's opinion has more merit than anything I've written here.  Ok - that's fine.  I have no problem with that.
Best regards,
LJ
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2018, 06:56:02 pm »
Lil John, truth be told, I value both your and Robo opinions.  I was employing humor, if I need to apologize, well, Buddy, you certainly have my apology.  I Did point out you were correct, no experiment has been conducted.

Yes Sir, I am still confused about ventilation, I just don?t know, there are no experiments.  Please accept my most humble apology.

 I very much respect you knowledge and appreciate your input.  This provides me with a learning experience.  I suggest your read my previous positive post about Sir Li John in the past and note all the positives I texted about you; an organic chemist, beautiful display hand made frames for photos, appreciation of pics you post, thanks for input, over and over.  How many times I used the word Buddy, and I mean it.  So please forgive me.  I do makes mistakes, more than I care to admit however I learn from my mistakes.

Yes I appreciate Robo post, but in all sincerity your post are valued, most valued.  So tomorrow is another day, a beautiful day.  Let?s move on and let me continue learning, I will if you keep posting and providing all that info with pics and your valuable experience.  Accept my apologies, Buddy, I only have empathy in my heart and I certainly value your sharing opinion, facts, links, data, photos.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2018, 07:55:55 am »
A follow up on a couple of things pertaining to my original thoughts in case anybody is interested. I found a topic on another site where people were making their own versions of the provap 110. Just dona google search for band heater vaporizer. I won?t link it as I don?t know that it?s appropriate. Either way it involves welding some 3/16? copper pipe into the side of a 1? to 1.5? copper pipe with the 3/16? pipe acting as a spout of sorts. You then use a band heater to sublimate the oa. Some use electronics to better control the temp and others just use a weaker heater and wait a little longer.

Also in that topic was some discussion about using oa at the top of the hive. So whatever system you use it seems that treating at top or bottom is viable.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline little john

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2018, 08:07:48 am »
Good morning Van

there really is no need to apologise - I know full well that you are 'one of the good guys'.  Which is why I ended my last post with the words "best regards" - words which were meant sincerely.

All I was trying to convey was that you are continuing to question ventilation and related issues because you remain confused about them, despite what you have read, and what others say to you regarding these matters ... whereas I don't.  That is - I don't anymore.

I'm nothing special, and like yourself, I too was faced with conflicting views and opinions when attempting to make sense of these issues - I've spent countless hours over many years trying to reconcile opposing theories and ideas, such as upper vs bottom entrances, and so forth.  And then it gradually began to dawn on me that the only viable barometer to use when comparing contrasting forms of insulation, ventilation, feed, hive design or location etc. - indeed, the whole myriad of issues which beekeepers spend huge chunks of their lifetimes arguing about - is to simply observe whether they work or not.  That is - do the bees survive and prosper in practice - regardless of the conditions under which they are kept ?

So - if your bees survive and prosper - that's ok.  If they don't, then you must be doing something wrong - so alter or amend whatever is believed to be the most likely faulty candidate, until the outcome changes favourably.

By doing this, we are dispensing with any notions of 'the perfect beehive', 'perfect beehive conditions' and so on.  When it comes to beekeeping, any notion of 'perfection' or 'ultimate truth' then becomes redundant.  This is not some kind of academic cop-out, but a realisation and acceptance that the honey-bee is the most adaptable of creatures, and will survive and prosper under almost any conditions.

I must stress - what I wrote earlier in this thread wasn't compiled during the last half-hour, or even the last few days - but is the product of years of considering why it is that beekeepers, ever since the first days of the modern beekeeping era (say from 1850-ish onwards) have never been able to agree about 'anything' !  And what the hell has been going on since that time ?  A hundred and seventy years and ten-thousand beekeeping books later ... and we're still arguing about what constitutes the 'best' beehive and 'best' beekeeping practice !

So - my contribution to all of this is to expose these ongoing arguments as being a cruel illusion.  Oh - they certainly seem to have the appearance of substance right enough, and it's simplicity itself to pull extracts from scientific papers in order to give such arguments an implied credibility - but the debates continue - week on week, year on year, without ever achieving any conclusion or reconciliation.

I have long held the view that over the last 150 years or so - indeed since beekeeping practices first started to be recorded in the form of the printed word, with authority (author-ity) being thus generated, beekeeping has gradually morphed into a quasi-religion, in which separate churches have emerged: treat vs no-treat; upper vs lower entrance; minimum vs maximum insulation, Italians vs Carnies; pure-bred vs mongrels, and just as with world religions the consequence of this has been to generate polarised exclusivity: "Your God vs My God", with each group claiming their own knowledge of an Ultimate Truth.

Yet in the meanwhile, the bees just quietly go about their business, completely oblivious to any problems we humans may be wrestling with.  Perhaps that's why we find them so fascinating ?
 
Again, "best regards",
LJ
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Offline little john

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Re: Oxalic acid and warre floor
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2018, 08:20:35 am »
A follow up on a couple of things pertaining to my original thoughts in case anybody is interested. I found a topic on another site where people were making their own versions of the provap 110. Just dona google search for band heater vaporizer. I won?t link it as I don?t know that it?s appropriate. Either way it involves welding some 3/16? copper pipe into the side of a 1? to 1.5? copper pipe with the 3/16? pipe acting as a spout of sorts. You then use a band heater to sublimate the oa. Some use electronics to better control the temp and others just use a weaker heater and wait a little longer.

Back on topic - that's exactly what I was planning to do just as soon as the weather moderates enough so that I can weld without my hands shaking with the cold.  I'm planning on making a mild steel prototype in order to iron-out any bugs, before making the final device from stainless steel.  I already have the tubes and band heater - still have the the electronics to make - but it's the weather which is holding things up right now.

I've found the relevant Beesource thread (thanks) - 21 pages ! - I'll have to wade through that later this evening.  Appreciated.
'best
LJ
 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 08:30:55 am by little john »
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