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Author Topic: Hey, Ace, no gun needed  (Read 8602 times)

Offline iddee

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2018, 08:40:24 am »
Now imagine if this guy had an automatic weapon.  It could have been hundreds.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2018, 01:24:40 pm »
NO, it would still be just his family. He accomplished his mission, with the tools he had. That will always be the case. Just ask Timothy McVeigh.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2018, 04:09:10 pm »
Ask a dead man?
Reading just a small portion of what was recorded he was asked lots of questions and he wasn't shy about answering.  You picked someone that had thoughts of killing family members, friends, acquaintances and innocent people which is mostly what he killed.  He could of blown up an empty federal building if he wanted to make a statement against the government but he killed innocent people instead.
What is alarming to me is he used some of the same rhetoric that is common among gun enthusiast today.  How does the government differentiate the difference between an individual that just likes guns and nut job like this when they sing the same song?
And again it is another story where a decorated service man goes off the deep end.  Was he nuts before he joined?  If so then why take him?  If he wasn't nuts before then maybe they need to find out why so many kids come out nuts.
Wally I think even I could have come up with a better example to support your case then you did.  This one sure doesn't
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Offline iddee

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2018, 05:47:05 pm »
""Ask a dead man?""

Why not? It's no more ridiculous than some of your Trump posts.

The point is, when someone wants to kill, they are going to find a way. Whether it's one family member or a hundred strangers, they will use the easiest way they can. If a gun or guns are that way, that's what they will use. If no guns available for the job, they will find another way. Why you can't see something as simple as that is beyond me.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2018, 09:15:14 am »
Why you can't see something as simple as that is beyond me.

I can see it.  What I can't get you to see is with mass murderers there is a time factor.  So if a gun is capable of shooting at a high rate it is much more desirable to the perpetrator then a 6 inch blade to do what the whack job wants to do.  Plus the fact that there is more of a possibility for a group of people to defend themselves and subdue the perpetrator if all he has is a knife.
You also are not listening to me.  I am not in favor of banning guns.  I am in favor of banning certain people from having certain guns.  Wally you are going to lose your right to have a gun one of two ways.  It is either going to be by the whack job who ends up creating a dictatorship with NRA help or the opposition banning them instead of solving the problem in a by partisan way that makes sense and more effective.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2018, 03:22:07 pm »
The first part is correct, but what you won't admit is, if you take their guns, they will find a different way. Maybe fewer deaths with a knife, or more with explosives. Either way, they will find another way.The only sure prevention is to remove the nuts, not the guns.

NO, the only thing that will take my guns is my death.
The first is only your fantasy, and the second would be unsuccessful in my particular case.
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Online Kathyp

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2018, 05:17:51 pm »
Quote
Now imagine if this guy had an automatic weapon.  It could have been hundreds.

Automatic weapons are already outlawed.  Problem solved.
Murder is already against the law.  Problem solved.
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2018, 05:35:17 pm »
So is grabbing a woman's crotch!
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2018, 07:25:15 pm »
Ace,
If a mass murderer wants to kill a lot more people quick, he can make a bomb with household items. They can also use a vehicle to mow down hundreds of people in a very short time. I don?t here you or the media trying to ban vehicles.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2018, 08:02:50 am »
You don't hear me trying to ban guns either.
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2018, 04:55:28 pm »
I've never seen the point of a semi auto.  I can fire just as many aimed rounds with most any other kind of gun including a single shot.  One of the gun writers of the 80's, Ross Seyfried told the story of lending his Ruger #1 single shot to his then girlfriend (later wife) and she came back from hunting coyotes to scold him for sending her with a single shot. She had called in five coyotes at once.  He asked if she got them, she said, "of course, but I broke a nail".  Berserkers throughout history have killed hundreds and thousands with things like swords and clubs and even the jawbone of an ass.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 05:34:20 pm by Michael Bush »
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2018, 05:39:19 pm »
Michael, that's probably true for sporting firearms use, but I think you'll admit the M1 Garand was a great improvement over the 03 in combat, particularly with green troops.  On the other hand, the M-16 was a huge ammo waster, especially when it was used full auto.  I knew some commanders who forbade their troops to move the selector switch for that reason. 

What the antigun crowd don't understand is that an assault rifle uses a relatively weak cartridge because the purpose of the weapon is to remove people from combat, not necessarily to kill them.  If you kill a soldier, he can just lie there.  If you wound him, the enemy has to use personnel to remove him from the battlefield and treat him.  Of course, that's the theory, but when your enemy has little regard for his wounded, the theory flies right out the window. 

I see videos of Arabs and such emptying their AK47s into the air to celebrate something or other and think they must have unlimited budgets for ammunition and no logistical problem getting ammo to their people.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2018, 05:50:28 pm »
Michael, I grew up hunting white winged doves in the Lower Rio Grande Valley.  I had a 20 gauge single shot shotgun, while the adults were carrying Browning over and unders and autoloaders.  I had to make every shot count, while they knew that always had another shot or two.  I usually had my limit while they were still shooting.  So, yeah, I have to agree with you about single shot firearms for sporting purposes.  It's like the kids who were given five .22 cartridges and had to bring home five rabbits or squirrels back in the old days.  Those were the kids who grew up to be the sharpshooters in WW1 and WW2, I guess.
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2018, 11:24:01 am »
>I see videos of Arabs and such emptying their AK47s into the air to celebrate something or other and think they must have unlimited budgets for ammunition and no logistical problem getting ammo to their people.

or a total lack of foresight...

>I usually had my limit while they were still shooting.

Exactly.  I think it's totally erroneous to assume that a semi auto is in any way more deadly than a single shot or a bolt action or a revolver.  A revolver fires every time I pull the trigger.  I can fire six aimed shots from my bolt action just as fast as I can fire six aimed shots from a semi auto.  Now I can certainly fire indiscriminate unaimed shots faster with a semi auto but that does not make it more deadly by any means.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2018, 07:37:56 pm »
Now I can certainly fire indiscriminate unaimed shots faster with a semi auto but that does not make it more deadly by any means.

In a crowd of people it does because aiming is not involved.  For hunting game not so much.
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2018, 08:17:56 am »
>In a crowd of people it does because aiming is not involved.  For hunting game not so much.

Many a hunter has fired into a flock of geese and thought they couldn't miss.  But they almost always do.  Very seldom do unaimed shots hit anything even when missing looks unlikely to the shooter.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2018, 09:09:02 am »
People standing shoulder to shoulder at a concert are not geese.  School kids trapped in a class room or auditorium are not geese.  Furthermore in a panic situation they are inclined to pack closer together trying to escape through a door.  Your experience for hunting counts for nothing in mass murder situations.  It's apples and oranges.
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Offline paus

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2018, 10:37:48 am »
But it does if you are one of those who can protect those sitting ducks.  Two of us have killed eight wild hogs with ten shot  semi autos and never take the gun from our shoulder. we both had rounds left.  Several times I have killed multiple hogs and squirrels many times with a semi or pump.   Aiming becomes instinctive with practice.  For years I was a Texas certified Safe Hunter instructor, we try to get as much range time in as possible to make safe handling a natural but as in driving it is an instinctive action but you must  never quit thinking. 

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2018, 11:09:36 am »
Now I can certainly fire indiscriminate unaimed shots faster with a semi auto but that does not make it more deadly by any means.

In a crowd of people it does because aiming is not involved.  For hunting game not so much.
Here is a clear example of firearm and hunting ignorance.  A crowd is a crowd, whether geese, buffalo or people.   Apples and apples.
Aiming must be involved if one expects to hit the target with effect.  When shots are fired a crowd will naturally scatter in all directions before the instinct or thought process to flee in one general direction of perceived safety kicks in.   Geese, ducks, buffalo and people all react in a similar manner when the crowd is threatened.  At first, there is a general confusion and milieu.  It takes time to gather into the 'flock' or 'herd' mentality and flee as a crowd.  Even then, there is much more space between objects than you would imagine. 

In order to be successful a predator must focus on one single target.  The same holds true for a 2 legged predator.  A goose hunter or an old-time buffalo hunter must pick out a specific target and fire for effect at a critical body point.  Anything else is ineffective and risks merely wounding.  Merely blasting away at a mass will give poor results.  Most shots would miss anything at all.  The few that hit are much less likely to hit vulnerable central nervous system points.  The reason people die in mass shootings is because the shots are aimed at critical body points. 

If it were all 'spray and pray' as you suggest, the death rate would be much lower and the survivable wound rate much higher.  In most mass shootings, the victims were not all gathered at an exit, but they were scattered through out the target area.  Aimed shooting.  The last time I went goose hunting I fired 4 shotgun rounds.  I killed 3 geese.  (I keep 1 round between the fingers of my off hand for a quick follow-up load) Aimed shooting.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 11:28:27 am by Hops Brewster »
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2018, 02:01:40 pm »
Aiming must be involved if one expects to hit the target with effect.

Tell that to the service men that have died as a result of a German machine gun.  Ground wars are about who has the better equipment.  No one has matched our equipment since the second WW in a ground fight.  That is why our military wants to make everything a ground fight even when it doesn't exist.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2018, 07:33:02 pm »
You really believe those gunners were not aiming at individual soldirs running toward them?  They were not spray and pray shooters.  They were skilled, disciplined soldiers, just as ours were.  Our gunners killed their share of enemy troops.  The Red Army soldiers?  Not so much skilled as a lot of them, which is why their losses were very high, but they continued to advance against German troops.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2018, 07:50:21 pm »
Ace, there was a story a few months ago where 3 cops all fired multiple rounds at a single subject. I'm not sure, but I'm thinking 39 rounds, like 20 to 30 feet away. All shots missed the subject.

So much for indiscriminate firing, even by professionally trained cops.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2018, 08:37:22 am »
Not the same thing at all Wally.  You think the professional trained cops didn't aim?  Anyways if the 39 rounds came from one automatic gun I doubt if all the shots would have missed.
Dallas, explain what the purpose of a tracer bullet is?  And then explain what the purpose of a gun sight is?  Now which one was used more often on automatic weapons?
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2018, 10:47:43 am »
Aiming must be involved if one expects to hit the target with effect.

Tell that to the service men that have died as a result of a German machine gun.  Ground wars are about who has the better equipment.  No one has matched our equipment since the second WW in a ground fight.  That is why our military wants to make everything a ground fight even when it doesn't exist.

Actually, the current method is Air Power and Sea Power.  Troops are thrown in only when needed, and to do those things that a missile can't.  Why risk the boots on the ground when an airstrike or missile can do the job in an instant?

Yes Ace, it's true.   The Germans had excellent machine guns in both World Wars. In WWI they used the Maxim gun.  An American, Maxim invented the first practical machine gun.  The US failed to adopt it, but the Germans and other Euro nations were quick to see its benefits and used it to great effect in WWI .  The US had to buy its MGs from France and Britain!  But by WWII we had the arguably best MGs in theatre.

Machine guns, German or otherwise, are still aimed.  It is usually not a constant spray of MG bullets, either.  Never has been.  Sure, there are notable exceptions, but in most cases, fully automatic fire is in short, repeated bursts.  You see, a constant spray is a sure way to quickly burn out the barrel, and when a MG barrel needs to be replaced it makes the BG crew vulnerable to attack.  Not only that, but spray and pray is a gross waste of ammunition, which is a critical factor in a pitched battle.  Aimed bursts are much more useful and effective.

Geez Ace, you continue to argue in ignorance a position which you cannot defend.  You know very little about firearms, yet continue to lecture those of us that do on their use/misuse.  ace, I pay attention to what you have to say about bees and I learn from you, but on this topic, not so much.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2018, 01:58:57 pm »

Machine guns, German or otherwise, are still aimed.  It is usually not a constant spray of MG bullets, either.  Never has been.  Sure, there are notable exceptions, but in most cases, fully automatic fire is in short, repeated bursts.  You see, a constant spray is a sure way to quickly burn out the barrel, and when a MG barrel needs to be replaced it makes the BG crew vulnerable to attack.  Not only that, but spray and pray is a gross waste of ammunition, which is a critical factor in a pitched battle.  Aimed bursts are much more useful and effective.


Contrary to what you might think I am aware of all this and you are missing the whole point.  The benefit and rapid adoption of the machine gun is not in the aiming of the gun it is in the rapid fire of the gun.  Hands down if we both had the same gun you would be better than I.  But if I had the gun and you didn't it would be to my advantage regardless of what I know.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2018, 02:17:58 pm »

Machine guns, German or otherwise, are still aimed.  It is usually not a constant spray of MG bullets, either.  Never has been.  Sure, there are notable exceptions, but in most cases, fully automatic fire is in short, repeated bursts.  You see, a constant spray is a sure way to quickly burn out the barrel, and when a MG barrel needs to be replaced it makes the BG crew vulnerable to attack.  Not only that, but spray and pray is a gross waste of ammunition, which is a critical factor in a pitched battle.  Aimed bursts are much more useful and effective.



As I recall from the stories,  a few well-placed AIMED bullets from a bolt action rifle let Sgt. Alvin York take out a machine gun nest in World War 1.  The number of rounds going downrange make no difference if they are not well aimed.

The open sights on machine guns are not fine instruments.  Tracers allow the gunner to adjust the placement of fire to compensate for the roughness of the sighting mechanism, adjusting for wind and elevation.
Contrary to what you might think I am aware of all this and you are missing the whole point.  The benefit and rapid adoption of the machine gun is not in the aiming of the gun it is in the rapid fire of the gun.  Hands down if we both had the same gun you would be better than I.  But if I had the gun and you didn't it would be to my advantage regardless of what I know.
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2018, 10:41:11 pm »

Machine guns, German or otherwise, are still aimed.  It is usually not a constant spray of MG bullets, either.  Never has been.  Sure, there are notable exceptions, but in most cases, fully automatic fire is in short, repeated bursts.  You see, a constant spray is a sure way to quickly burn out the barrel, and when a MG barrel needs to be replaced it makes the BG crew vulnerable to attack.  Not only that, but spray and pray is a gross waste of ammunition, which is a critical factor in a pitched battle.  Aimed bursts are much more useful and effective.


Contrary to what you might think I am aware of all this and you are missing the whole point.  The benefit and rapid adoption of the machine gun is not in the aiming of the gun it is in the rapid fire of the gun.  Hands down if we both had the same gun you would be better than I.  But if I had the gun and you didn't it would be to my advantage regardless of what I know.
Then why do you keep pulling out this "spraying into a crowd" and other kneejerk nonsense?  If you really do know about these things, the stop spouting ignorance and misinformation.  If you are as knowledgeable on the subject as you claim, bring out some facts, and stop spouting the leftist dogma of fear and disinformation.  I have not missed the point!  You have merely been making a sad attempt at obfuscation, and I call you on it.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2018, 05:16:19 pm »
Hops, the point keeps moving, doesn't it?  Harder to get it pinned down when it moves and changes shape with each posting.  But that's okay.  The is not so much a debate as a game of blind man's bluff.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2018, 09:42:58 pm »
If you're expecting a legible conversation from Ace, forget it. He is so spaced out in his thinking, he doesn't even know hisself what he's thinking.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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