Found a drone layer, how to get rid of her?

[jalentour]

I found a drone laying queen in one of my hives.  Obviously I would like to replace her. 
Been in the hive 3 times, seen her once, small and quick.
Other than pinching her, is there an easier way to requeen?  Can I shake them out, let them crawl back in and requeen?
Spent a lot of time and a few stings on this one.
Thanks.

[little john]

Can I shake them out, let them crawl back in and requeen?

That's certainly one way.  Fit a sheet (or piece) of Queen Excluder over the entrance - shake off the combs in front of the hive, put a few combs back in, and put a top on the box.  All the workers will duly enter - the drones and the queen won't be able to - unless she's very small indeed.  And even then, she'll have difficulty getting through, giving you enough time to grab her.

Take up station 'suitably dressed' (if they're cranky) near the entrance and treat that queen to a vodka bath or a size 9 boot as soon as you catch her.

If I ever need to find a really elusive unmarked queen, then I use a Marburg Box.  It's a very useful bit of kit and has many uses - but I only use mine as a last resort to find a queen - when it becomes a great time-saver. http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/marburg.html
LJ

[iddee]

I would use an entrance queen/drone excluder and shake them out in front of the hive. Catch her as they go back in.

[BeeMaster2]

What makes you think you saw a laying worker queen? They look just like a worker bee because they are a worker bee. If this hive does not have a queen, then it probably has hundreds of laying workers. If it is queen right, the bees will remove the laying worker eggs.
Did you see her laying eggs?
I suspect you may have seen a virgin green. She would bee small because she has not mated yet. I would recommend leaving this hive alone and give her a chance to mate and prove her self before you go into this hive again.
Jim

[Michael Bush]

Shaking out is a total failure with laying workers. It might work with a drone laying queen, but shaking them through an excluder might be more effective.  In my experience if you give them open brood every week for three weeks it will fix wither one as the bees will raise a new queen.  If you have laying workers enough to notice a problem then you have thousands of laying workers...

[iddee]

Laying workers and a drone laying queen are a million miles away from being the same. A drone laying queen is a normal size queen laying unfertilized eggs, and there will only be one in the hive. Laying workers are just that. Workers laying eggs. There will be many in a hive. To correct a drone laying queen hive, simply pinch the queen and introduce a fertile one.

[little john]

Shaking out is a total failure with laying workers.

The shaking-out of Laying Workers is both guaranteed and an instant cure. I did one only last week - all bees dumped 20-30 feet away in the long grass.  Returning colony given a test frame - which is currently sporting half a dozen beautiful queen cells. Have dumped out many times. Always works. Guaranteed and instant.

But - the OP doesn't have a virgin, cause he's got drones being created - and it ain't a Laying Worker - 'cause he's actually seen the little madam.

Just shake 'em out with a QX in front - problem will be quickly sorted.
LJ

[eltalia]

"The shaking-out of Laying Workers is both guaranteed and an instant cure. "

This procedure, along with claims of another method in isolating
LW groups, I question as to what is claimed as "guaranteed" and
"works".
Questioned in mind of colony efficiency and that scope of
beekeeping which holds to natural processes being at the core of
successful bee management.
I have considered Mr. Bush's method, finding that route whilst
labour and resource intensive is more closely aligned with natural
development of a colony and so fits "guaranteed" and "works"
closely in definition of both word uses.
Yet I have mine own method, developed long before any Internet
was availabe for ideas exchange, and deployed less times than
I can count on one hand as the circimstance is extremely rare, in
my experience.
At the risk of diverting the thread I make note of two observances;
# A laying worker colony being symptomatic of a wider problem in
management it is questionable those BK so affected actually have a
grip on the organism that is a social bee collective.
# I am hearing Jim's "laying worker queen?" is being misread by some
and so prompting thoughts on what is a very old "chew toy" for some.

The OP could wait out this queen to determine for sure she is simply
doing just what queens do, or not. Time and the bees will sort this, or
at least telegraph a clearer picture.


Cheers.

Bill

[tjc1]

  Returning colony given a test frame - which is currently sporting half a dozen beautiful queen cells. Have dumped out many times. Always works. Guaranteed and instant.

[/quote]

Is a 'test frame' a frame of open brood/eggs? If so, that sounds like what MB is suggesting but without dumping the bees. It does seem to me that the returning laying workers would re-enter and just go back to laying, unless you are saying that the dumping out makes them stop for some reason. Or maybe I'm not reading you correctly...?

[eltalia]

"It does seem to me that the returning laying workers would re-enter and just go back to laying, unless you are saying that the dumping out makes them stop for some reason. "

The method, tjc1, relies on the assumption the laying workers have not reached flight stage in their development and so are sacrificed to a long dangerous walk,
or to perish from exposure.  We are not talking about a few dozen bees here.. nor even a few hundred, the numbers could be thousands in a strong colony suddenly found queenless with workers laying.
Flyers and foragers are assumed to be focused on returning to the hive body, something highly speculative in a yard with more than a single colony or adjacent "bushland".
Whatever, the method is a further shrinking of an already depleted colony, and
whilst gets some result in righting a colony I would question the efficacy as the optimum option for a colony going forward.

Cheers.

Bill

[little john]

I'm more than happy not to argue my corner regarding many beekeeping topics, but this is not one of them.  I'm not at all interested in what theory may suggest - all I know is that I've done this more times than I can remember, and it always works.

I would make two further points:  what advantage is there in adopting a long-winded procedure, when an instant cure is available ?

Secondly - and far more importantly - we are now at the end of July.  Not everyone is blessed with a long beekeeping season, and in a week or so reports from various areas will start coming in of drones being evicted.  Where I live they can start being evicted at any time from early August to as late as October - and at the risk of stating the obvious: no drones = no mated queens. (unless you happen to have a few 'put by', of course)  And so, when choosing a method of dealing with a LW colony, this needs to be taken into account.

The method MB advocates may take 3-5 weeks - and only then can a new queen-cell start to be raised.  Will you still have drones available in (maybe) 7 weeks time ?

LJ

[tjc1]

Thanks for the clarification, LJ and Bill. I am always interested in hearing the observations/experiences/thoughts of experienced beeks in such matters, even if they do not always agree in their conclusions. applications or approaches. It is reading about those experiences and thoughts that is of value for all of us, I think.

[Michael Bush]

I can't say that a shake out never worked for anyone, of course, but I did shake outs many times back in the 70s and can only say it NEVER worked for me.  After consulting with many beekeepers over the last 43 years they also concluded that it never worked.  After looking for research on the topic, the main premise of the method is flawed to start with.  The premise is that a laying worker doesn't know her way back and all evidence shows she does.  I've also done a shake out on an observation hive so I could watch the proceedings.  In that case I put four frames from a nuc in the observation hive with the queen and took all of the combs of laying workers and shook them out 50 yards or so from the hive.  The instantly went back and killed the queen and none were left where I shook them out.  In the case of laying workers you don't have A laying worker, you don't even have hundreds of laying workers.  You have THOUSANDS of laying workers and I don't see a lot of lost bees on the ground, they all fly directly back.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00299895
"More than half of the bees in laying worker colonies have developed ovaries (Sakagami 1954)..."-- Reproduction by worker honey bees (Apis mellifer L.) R.E. Page Jr and E.H. Erickson Jr. - Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology August 1988, Volume 23, Issue 2, pp 117-126

[jalentour]

Thank you all for your reply.  I can factually state I have a drone laying queen.  But not for the reason I thought after reading your comments.
The details I did not mention:
In June I found that my queen in this hive was laying in the honey supers.  I shook out most of the hive in front of the entrance and put a QE under the honey supers and reassembled the hive.  I did not destroy the eggs and cells in the honey, I figured the bees would work it out.  Fast forward to this week:
I opened the hive  and found the lower boxes filled with pollen and some honey, the boxes over the QE filled with honey and drone cells.
I am guessing the origional queen died shortly after I put on the QE.  The bees made an emergency queen with the larva that remained, unfortunately above the QE.  Since there is no upper entrance she did not get mated.
My feeling is that she is too old to mate and needs to be replaced.
Since my first writing I have removed the QE and she is mixing with the rest of the hive. 
I feel confident I do not have laying workers.
Based on the suggestions you all have provided, it seems that a shake out with a EQ at the entrance is the best way to solve the problem, then add queen cells or young larva.

[eltalia]

"I am guessing the origional queen died shortly after I put on the QE. "

[nods)
Yes, most likely during the shakeout. All interventions carry an element of risk, it is a numbers game in all things (bee)havorial :-)

Given the time since your post and assuming that was made immediately after finding her producing drones, maybe a dozen or so days or so after the intervention, I would wait a bit. Maybe give her another 10 days to produce a capped worker cell.
Bad as my mental maths are I'd be persuaded to let things run for now
as either way the colony is up against it in terms of building up for a wintering. Plus I am not so sure having a new queen beginning laying as ambients fall is a good thing... others in your climate may advise on that
factor of decision.

Kudos for getting in there in the first place... others would have lost that colony.

Cheers.

Bill

[eltalia]

"The method MB advocates may take 3-5 weeks - and only then can a new queen-cell start to be raised. Will you still have drones available in (maybe) 7 weeks time ?"

Yet all the time between that method sees not just generation of new workers but 'conversion' of ye olde LW... so numbers wise, colony wise, it wins hands down compared to dumping a whole generation plus more into the ether. I have trouble accepting such as any "cure" or indeed fitting the norm for "it works".
I have never tried the "shake 'em and walk" method, never heard of it till a few weeks ago. I have read BKs attesting their attempt worked so I can accept some are comfortable with the outcome.
I have tried variations of the graft method Michael uses, done from using mine own logic, very many many years ago and as I recall after losing a few queen introduction attempts. Still, numbers wise that and the separation by screening method are preferred options over "shake 'em and walk".
As said, I have the method I use - passed on long ago -  it worked first time and on each occasion thereafter. Little loss and very fast - within a week the colony is righted - the situations to use it are very rare, in my experience.
As the OP has demonstrated it is observation and due diligence that saves the day in avoiding LW events occuring.

Cheers.

Bill

[eltalia]

"I am always interested in hearing the observations/experiences/thoughts of experienced beeks in such matters, even if they do not always agree in their conclusions. applications or approaches."

Oh there is much to be written yet on the topic of rectifying LW, tjc1, as you are seeing kicking off now. But begin a new thread on that topic alone and
we'll all join with that, I reckon ;-))))


Cheers.

Bill

[jalentour]

elt,
This is a very strong hive albeit old in bee terms.  The numbers in the hive are very high.
I think it's worth the risk to do a couple manipulations.
I'll drop in a few frames of brood after I shake them out, I have a few Qcells from the Russian hives to add to the mix.  QE at the entrance, with a pair of queen squishers nearby.  Couple of cans of Feral Tusk while I'm waiting will do the trick.
If I can save the hive by bringing it down to a 5x5 nuc by October I'd consider it a win.
What say you?

[eltalia]

ummm... remember this?
"This is a very strong hive albeit old in bee terms. The numbers in the hive are very high."

They are likely "antsy" because they are defending that virgin, not unusual.
Really I would give her a few more days breathing space. You should see the lay rate increase significantly once she is mated and so if that happens wait until capping occurs before doing what you propose... which is likely the only "home brew" route out of this one.

Cheerio..

Bill

[tycrnp]

I had a hive with laying workers.  I shook out all of the bees and removed the frames with the abnormal comb, added a frame with brood, then the following week added another frame of brood and introduced a new queen.  They are all doing well now.