Queens Killing Queens- Who Kills Whom?

[sc-bee]

OK folks,  let me remind you of our forum by-laws.

RULE 2) BE KIND and INTERACT, NOT REACT. AGREE TO DISAGREE EVEN IF ATTACKED BY ANOTHER MEMBER - WE WILL HANDLE THE OTHER MEMBER.


Some of the discussion here is getting marginal and I don't want to have to lock this thread.   It is OK to agree to disagree without raising the level to be confrontational.   A lot of it has to due with the choice of wording used,  so please think before posting.

Geeze Robo when I saw your name ....I thought you were going to tell me your thoughts on the original post    I have just sit back and listened because bananas give me gas and I have dealt with enough smart arse the last few weeks at work.....

So any thoughts on the question, "Who kills whom",  not already expressed? So far, what I think I have gathered from the useful part of this thread is (1) All queens can/will kill at times (2) Usually however it, is a virgin involved...

[eltalia]

(edit)
So any thoughts on the question, "Who kills whom",  not already expressed? So far, what I think I have gathered from the useful part of this thread is (1) All queens can/will kill at times (2) Usually however it, is a virgin involved...

Question, SB.
Are you going somewhere else with the original question, or am I guilty
of reading more into this statement (below) then the above now brings into focus.
"I have never witnessed a queen killing a queen but have seen workers ball a queen. "

There is little doubt queens kill, that video I took apart clearly shows a queen
killing.... regardless of the erroneous assumption made by the BK
building the footage. However workers kill also.
I read your question as which, where, when, in respect of both workers and queen (s)
in any stable colony.
I have that wrong?
As you now address only queens, and as a nonspecific outcome in colony direction, I can
only agree with your conclusion as it has long been known it is rare for a laying queen, or
aged/inefficient queen to kill anything. The workers simply denying her that privilege.
A virgin queen on the other hand is a colony's future and so is maybe not so controlled.

To address the recommended reading from LJ... I thank LJ for the insight
and shall address the body of work in a new topic elsewhere.
Being close to completing a read I lean towards my original comment being justified. I trust
those who have read the work would contribute to that new topic.

Cheers.

Bill

[sc-bee]

I thought it was just a simple straight forward question... maybe I complicated it by asking several questions?

I have read ..... only virgin queens do any killing of other queens and I was wondering if this were true or if indeed a mated queen would ever kill any other queen. I think MB and LJ gave a pretty good descriptions. And no I have never seen any queen killing anything/ anywhere. I have seen workers ball a queen.

Somewhere, what I thought was a simple question went Bananas, I think about reply 3 

"Think about the structured physical state of any newly emerged bee,
queens included, to get across this great divide so entrenched
in contemporary colony evolution conclusions. "
Seriously???

I am no newbee and sometimes a straight forward answer without trying to impress..... is impressive 

Cheers
SC



.

[Acebird]

then simply put a dozen ripe queen cells into an incubator and see what happens.  No prizes for guessing the outcome - you'll be left with just the one virgin queen alive ... and there are no bees other than virgins involved in that carnage.

Off topic ...  What is the trick that breeders use to prevent this from happening?  It is my understanding that a virgin can kill another still in its cell.

[Michael Bush]

> So far, what I think I have gathered from the useful part of this thread is (1) All queens can/will kill at times (2) Usually however it, is a virgin involved...

That's a good start.  I think also usually the virgin is killing a virgin and not a virgin killing a laying queen.  Workers also can kill a queen, but usually do not.  Usually they ball her but don't kill her.  Sometimes they ball her long enough to kill her.

What I have observed:

Virgin queens running from one another.
Virgin queens killing virgin queens.
Virgin queens killing queen cells.
Workers killing queen cells.
Workers killing laying queens.
Workers killing virgin queens.
Two laying queens laying side by side on the same comb.

What I have never seen, but may or may not happen:
Laying queen attacking a laying queen.
Laying queen attacking a virgin queen.
Laying queen attacking queen cells.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

"Two laying queens laying side by side on the same comb."

Mr. Bush, How did you determine both queens were laying queens and not mated mother, virgin daughter?

[herbhome]

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks, guys!
 If I may, the question that hops up in my mind is this. If the laying queen is not likely to attack the virgin queen, why do queenright hive queen rearing schemes call for an excluder?
 Perhaps it is from an overabundance of caution or is it simply to keep her footprint pheromone out of the cell building area?

[Michael Bush]

Neither was a virgin as they were both caught in the act of laying.   I'm reasonably certain they were mother and daughter, though I can't know that for sure.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

"This is a very interesting thread. Thanks, guys!
 If I may, the question that hops up in my mind is this. If the laying queen is not likely to attack the virgin queen, why do queenright hive queen rearing schemes call for an excluder?
 Perhaps it is from an overabundance of caution or is it simply to keep her footprint pheromone out of the cell building area?"

I use an excluder to prevent a queen from destroying queen cells. Queen in bottom deep, queen cells in upper chamber separated from laying queen by excluder.  Blessings

[BeeMaster2]

As far as I can determine, to put this in a brief statement:
Virgin queens , if allowed by the bees, will kill every queen cell and every virgin queen in the hive.
Once the queen is mated, then the bees, mostly the older ones, will kill any queen that attempts to move into a hive. They will do this by balling the queen and then tear the wings and legs off.
I have found that if a swarm tries to move into another hive then some of the bees of each hive will protect their queen by balling it to keep the opposing bees from killing their queen and the strongest hive will eventually kill the opposing queen. Within 3 days the winning queen will start laying.

Jim

[Michael Bush]

> If I may, the question that hops up in my mind is this. If the laying queen is not likely to attack the virgin queen, why do queenright hive queen rearing schemes call for an excluder?

The nurse bees will likely tear down the cells if they think they don't need them for any reason.  Especially if they haven't pupated yet.  You need the cells in a position where they are unlikely to tear them down.  Putting the cells far enough away from the queens pheromones is the point.

[eltalia]

What Michael said, and also to restrict the newest queen from leaving the box.
Though some run top AND bottom entrances -- an error of management in my view.

Cheers.

Bill

[herbhome]

Thanks Michael and Bill,

That makes a lot of sense.