A second swarm in a month?

[GJP]

I had one of my first two hives (installed April 22, 08) swarm about June 22nd.  I never saw the swarm but did find capped swarm cells and a greatly reduced number of bees in what had been my strong hive.  I allowed the hive to re-queen itself, added a frame of brood from the strong hive and waited for eggs. I also added a 6 5/8 honey super with starter strips.    I found eggs a week ago Saturday 7/19 and made sure they weren't from laying workers.  I went into the hive tonight to check on the honey super and to see if there was any larva or capped brood.  I have both but it looks like all the brood are drones and I also found the start of about 6-8 swarm cells.  They have had plenty of room, I've moved the honey filled frames in the hive bodies to the outside and they still have two or three frames in the hive bodies that aren't fully drawn (all starter strips of 5.1). 

I guess I'm just very confused as to why they are getting ready to swarm again when they have so much space!  My other hive is building swarm cells too but have filled one honey super and have started to draw comb and deposit honey in a second super.  I've resigned myself to the fact I won't be able to stop the strong hive from swarming but am at a loss on the weak hive that already swarmed once. 

I had emailed back and forth with Michael Bush about the first swarm and we decided that I had feed both hives syrup for way too long which caused the first swarm  Just looking for some help on the second swarm.

Thanks,

Greg

[Brian D. Bray]

Sounds to me as if they may be superceding the new queen, not all queen cells found at the bottoms of the frames are swarm cells just as not all queen cells at the tops of the frames are necessarially supercedure cells.  Emergency cells can be anywhere.  Your queen probably didn't mate well and has a high ratio of drone to worker eggs.

Put in another frame of brood from you other hive and see what happens.  Place it in the middle of the hive with the frames being drawn on each side.  If they need a queen they may make more queen cells and the placement of the frames will stimulate an existing queen into laying in the frames being drawn out.  The new frames will be worker brood cell. 

[GJP]

Brian,

Thanks for the advice.  My only problem is that the other hive is looking like it's going to swarm too.  I'm due to check that hive out this weekend and I'll see if there is enough brood to share another frame.

I really enjoy working the bees and feel like I've learned a lot.  Problem is there is a lot more to learn!

Greg

[asciibaron]

I really enjoy working the bees and feel like I've learned a lot.  Problem is there is a lot more to learn!

don't pressure yourself to try and learn everything or worry about making mistakes.  i was talking to a local beek that has a large number of hives.  he has been doing this for 6 years and laughs at himself all the time.  i told him about my troubles with a swarm - seems he had it far worse - he kept buying replacement queens and the hive kept killing them - he couldn't figure out why until it dawned on him - he was putting them in the wrong hive!

-Steve

[GJP]

Steve,

Thanks!  It's been a great experience and right now I'm starting to t think more about overwintering the hives here in Wisconsin and then preparing for next spring.  When the hive first swarmed back in June, I was already starting to think about wht type of packages I would buy to replace them next spring.  The only real frustration is following all the directions in the books I read and having problems anyway.  It still looks like I'll get one full super of honey off my strong hive which I'll crush and strain because I experimented with foundationless frames and the bees built nice comb but built it from the bottom up and in every direction imaginable.  I've gone back to starter strips for now and am have much better luck with the second honey super. 

Take care,

Greg

[Scadsobees]

Any harvest is great!

Heres my $.02, consider this with your experiences, I may or may not be correct.

I found eggs a week ago Saturday 7/19 and made sure they weren't from laying workers.  I went into the hive tonight to check on the honey super and to see if there was any larva or capped brood.  I have both but it looks like all the brood are drones and I also found the start of about 6-8 swarm cells.  They have had plenty of room, I've moved the honey filled frames in the hive bodies to the outside and they still have two or three frames in the hive bodies that aren't fully drawn (all starter strips of 5.1).

This indicates to me that you have one of two problems: 1. drone laying queen (badly mated or unmated) or 2. Laying worker.

The 6-8 swarm cell starts that you mention suggests a laying worker, often with a LW they will try to requeen but without fertilized eggs....

If you can find a queen in there then she will need to be replaced.  Either way you can try to add in a frame of eggs from your good hive and see if they try to raise a new queen, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.  But it is worth a shot.  Otherwise do a search for laying worker, it is a fairly common problem, but not an easy one. 

Rick

[GJP]

Rick,

I have swarm cells in my strong hive too so my plan is to move a frame of brrod from my strong hive that also has some swarm cells into my weak hive.  I've been trading emails with Michael Bush and he believes I have a drone laying queen and that the hive wants to replace her.  The brood patern is very spotty.  At this point I'm going to try the frame switch and see what happens.  If I lose the colony over the fall/winter, I'll either do a split if my other colony makes it or start with new packages and drawn comb.  I started both packages this April on foundation.  So I should be ahead of the game next spring until something else happens!

Greg