Hive observation today

[bwallace23350]

My bees sit in the middle of my 1 acre fruit orchard. Next up to bloom is a big plug tree and a peach tree followed close by some cherry trees and blackberries. It is an odd year. I have already seen clover blooming on the side of the road. I will check the feeder today and get back with everyone. There are droves of red maples within 1/2 mile of the hive. If they are not taking the feed I might wait to see if they will take the feed once the red maples die down.

[bwallace23350]

The bees are not taking the feed but the sugar ants have found it

[eltalia]

@iddee

... so it IS idealogy which drives your advice, a mantra built to max out
honey production at whatever (bee) cost in your local.
It has to interest the hobbyist reader to see here two retired commercial
b'keeps of considerable experience running two starkly differing lines.
One repeating their own methods of long-standing, the other reshaping
those in consideration of the colony... not the money.
One line only requiring listening to what was taught at hand, the other
using bee biology to adapt to change, change required as the scale of loss
is greatly magnified over 10 colonies as it is to > 200 with far more
resources at hand.
I seriously doubt any BMA member running > 200 colonys would ask
the question tbe OP carries, thus your advice is redundant.

I accept my thoughts on the OP are different to those which see colonys
in the USA suffering losses of 40% coming out of wintering, I do not
apologise for suggesting to you your mantra is seriously flawed.

Bill

[eltalia]

Bill,
Our local, ex inspector, expert has been telling club members to feed feed feed since January.
Our weather is similar to Alabama's. Our bees start to build up the brood nest on
December 22, winter solstice.
Jim

Jim,
It is a matter of public record your hobby - your family hobby - languishes
under pressures much wider than one issue, the emergence from wintering.
Yet for them all (issues) the only advice you will get is what is being put in this
thread -  from a line which is not relative to your hobby.
Keep following and the slide to "phark this is too hard" will only escalate
in difficulty. Maybe 11 colonys one year to 30 the next.
The way forward is to seriously consider pushes for change, and participate.
Here's  one thought.
Your "Beefest"...?... invite along at least two speakers.. pay tbem if necessary.
You want one from the Agri industry and one from the biological sciences who
actually keeps bees at hobby level. You do not want anyone of the likes of
Ken Warchol. You yourself, and a number who would be at the Beefest, know
what he knows and more, locally.
These people may help you with selections:
http://beeaudacious.com/index.php/the-people/

Bill

[tjc1]

Interesting - I've been thinking about the fact that beeks here in the US in two totally different zones - far south and northeast - are looking at the feeding issues from very different perspectives, and yet both groups are concerned about mid to late winter feeding. Here in the NE, the fear is bees running out of stores before the end of the (longer) winter, and in the south, needing to make sure that the bees have enough food earlier on because they start brood rearing so much earlier in the winter. Up here, lots of folks have advocated the 'mountain camp' insurance method of putting dry sugar above the hives since we can't feed syrup until it warms up enough in April. (There is another starvation concern up here that has to do with bees with plenty of stores who starve because they can't break cluster during a prolonged deep freeze in order to reach fresh stores.)

It would seem that at root, the solution would be to leave the bees enough stores at the end of the summer (or feed them sufficiently at the end of the summer) so that they have enough stores to manage whatever winter circumstances pertain in your zone. I recall Michael Bush's advice to avoid the (undesirable) need to feed the bees by leaving sufficient stores, extending the idea of avoiding feeding even to package bees as soon as there is a flow on and they can provide for themselves. So I guess my question is, is there a reason(s) that the bees cannot be set up adequately in the fall so that the feeding issue is moot?

[iddee]

Yep, El, you're right. Ask the same question of 10 beeks and get 11 ""correct"" answers. Each one has a different goal, so his method will be different. One will have 2 purposes.

[Waveeater]

I have far less experience than most here, but in the few years I have been working with Bees, I have discovered one thing. If they do not have enough food they will die, regardless of the time of the year. I recently checked all my hives and found several that had succumbed to either starvation or cold or combination of both. In some cases the hives were weak and there were simply not enough bees. Others had large numbers of bees but never broke cluster to get to a full honey super 3 inches above them. On the hives that I have left more than enough stores and they were healthy going into winter with a good queen I have had no problem. Let's all hope for good weather for the coming Spring.

[eltalia]

tjc1 wrote in part;
"Interesting - I've been thinking about the fact that beeks here in the US in two totally
different zones"

Take that further in adding "tropical zone" and "hot arid zone" to the mix.
Then ask yourself what is the common link to sustainable beekeeping
in all "zones" across latitudes.
For mine it is utilising the bee biology in convincing bees to at least consider
changed conditions artifically created - if the b'keep chooses to manage a
 colony over just letting them do bee things the bee way.

The key element the b'keep can put to work is the very same the bees
use - the queen. As the bees control her so can the b'keep in
persuading the colony. There lies the answer in all zones for all conditions.

[caveat]
I am specifically addressing hobby colonys here. Small scale commercial
(sideliners), pollinator colonys, and commercial honey enterprises are
not to be linked to my comments. The work - and attention required -
would not fit any of those models.

Bill

[BeeMaster2]

Bill,
I used to never feed. I left enough food in the fall for the bees to make it through the winter and then some. They would make it through and build up and I would have a strong hive or 2 abscond during a warm late winter when there was no flow. 2 years ago I lost 4 strong hives 2 weeks  after checking them and they all had plenty of stores after they left. The following year I fed all the hives using just 2 holes in the lid and did not lose any of them. So that is what I am doing right now. Our bees and most bees in the states have Africanized bee genetics and in Africa the bees have to move when the dry season begins (abscond) or the will not survive the dry season.
Jim

[Acebird]

So I guess my question is, is there a reason(s) that the bees cannot be set up adequately in the fall so that the feeding issue is moot?

The reasons are completely dependent on location and weather.  Some bees will just go up and leave honey on the sides.  I would expect this is more of a problem with 10 frame then 8.  If your location gives you strong flows in the spring and practically nothing all summer long well then the only way they are going to survive is to feed.  It is so important to know what is common for your area and if your area yields an abundance of honey then your options are greater.  In my area right now we are getting ridiculous warm weather.  65 yesterday, 63 right now and it will be in the 20's tonight.  It sure feels good to have the break from winter but it is no help for my bees.

[bwallace23350]

Bill,
I used to never feed. I left enough food in the fall for the bees to make it through the winter and then some. They would make it through and build up and I would have a strong hive or 2 abscond during a warm late winter when there was no flow. 2 years ago I lost 4 strong hives 2 weeks  after checking them and they all had plenty of stores after they left. The following year I fed all the hives using just 2 holes in the lid and did not lose any of them. So that is what I am doing right now. Our bees and most bees in the states have Africanized bee genetics and in Africa the bees have to move when the dry season begins (abscond) or the will not survive the dry season.
Jim

Would the fact that our bees in Alabama do not have Africanized genes yet make a difference?

[bwallace23350]

So I guess my question is, is there a reason(s) that the bees cannot be set up adequately in the fall so that the feeding issue is moot?

The reasons are completely dependent on location and weather.  Some bees will just go up and leave honey on the sides.  I would expect this is more of a problem with 10 frame then 8.  If your location gives you strong flows in the spring and practically nothing all summer long well then the only way they are going to survive is to feed.  It is so important to know what is common for your area and if your area yields an abundance of honey then your options are greater.  In my area right now we are getting ridiculous warm weather.  65 yesterday, 63 right now and it will be in the 20's tonight.  It sure feels good to have the break from winter but it is no help for my bees.

We have a spring and fall flow. The summer can be a little bit of a dearth but even then their usually is something for them to work

[paus]

I will bet there is DNA from AB in most hives any where in the south.  The DNA is being diluted by sheer numbers of European type bees.  The genes that cause a given type of behavior or characteristic  from bees is like the roll of a many side dice.  It is not as simple as Mendels flower garden.  Van this would be a good one for you to weigh in on,

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Good morning Paus, bee genetics are not well understood.  The reason is simple, most researchers do not wish to work with venomous insects, the other reason is a queen breeds with so many drones.

From personal observation I believe aggression in honey bees is controlled by a recessive gene(s) in most strains and most likely quantitative, (more on this later.). However the African Honey bee (Ahb) certainly carries dominant genes.  There is one strain of ahb that is gentle and found only in Puerto Rico.

 Ahb drones fly further for mating flights than most honey bees thus breeding more queens.

Mendelian genetics is based on a dominant and recessive genes.  But in nature we find many exceptions to such simple genetics.  There are genes that silence or alter the effect of other genes, as mentioned earlier some genes are quantitative.  Quantitative genes are such that each parent contributes to a particular gene.  Human breast size is a good example of quantitative genetics as each parent contributes one or more factors.  The more factors the larger the outcome.

Breed a gentle Carniolan and a gentle itialian and the offspring (F1) can be surprisingly aggressive.  However when bred the second time aggressive F1 to a gentle Carniolan and the (F2) offspring can be gentle.  This is why I believe aggressive in honey bees is controlled by a recessive gene.  The African is the exception.

What is important to understand in the US, we have bottlenecked our honey bee genes.  Majority of queens in the US are produced by a handful of breeders.  Thus we lack biodiversity in the bees which leads to weak, disease ridden, underperforming bees.

MBush recently posted some excellent links regarding the lack of biodiversity in captive US honey bees.  The text verified that biodiversity was maintained in true feral hives.  So a true wild honeybee hive is absolutely a precious commodity as a source of fresh genetics that confers disease tolerant/resistant offspring when crossed with captivity raised bees.

With commercial queens produced by the 10,000?s (ten thousand) by a single breeder, we are slowly eroding, bottleneck, the diversity of the genetics of our honey bees.  Without genetic diversity a honey bee cannot compete in a diversified world as effective as nature intended.
Blessings

[bwallace23350]

Supposedly AB have not made it to Alabama yet. If I have their genes in my bees they did not get any aggressiveness. I plow my garden, and and mow around them

[bwallace23350]

Van, around my part of the world we have a couple different colored wild bees. Some looked like swarmed Italians, some are a slightly darker color, and some are an almost black bee which can be highly aggressive so I am told. A friend of mine has some really dark bees though that are not aggressive but they probably bred with his bought stock. What is your thoughts on this.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

The state of Arkansas has verified two cases of African Honey bee in Arkansas as if 2017.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

BWallace there are several species of the Black honey bee, I can recall at least 6 and they all look the same.

In 1920, a German black was introduced in the US.  This particular bee was so vicious, they could not be handled safely.  Some of those bees surely swarmed, established and may contribute to genetics this day.

The Carniolan, a black bee, is gentle, a pleasure to work with.  The bees remain on the comb when inspected, few take to the air.  However, how can one be sure the bee is a true Carniolan.  So I use species name with a grain of salt.  Of more importantence to me is the characteristic of a given bee hive, regardless of color or whatever given name they may have.
Blessings

[bwallace23350]

From hearing these people talk most of the black bees must be of German decent. Are they as bad as the Africanized Bees?

[eltalia]

Bill,
I used to never feed.

Put aside any thought I am saying not to feed, Jim, there is nothing
in my thoughts suggesting such a mantra, and to lump what I have put
so far in with set regimes/beliefs is not where I would want a reader
to think I am going with my suggestions.
Too often these topics go "tribal" and so end up isolating people over
including them in different concepts. If not that, the thread/topic gets
diverted and so the message drowned. This is happening right here
right now.

I will continue with my thrust for folk to rethink wintering per se
over in the "Cold Weather" thread.
Not right now as I have my hands full here in big days.

Bill