Author Topic: Queen questions (Read 6828 times)

ryokomuyo · « **on:** January 03, 2012, 05:10:00 pm »

Hi there. First time beekeeper here with a few questions.

Prior to starting beekeeping I took a beginner beekeeping class that noted that you should always have at least two hives in case your queen failed. I'm looking into getting a Kenyan Top Bar to begin with, as I'm not really interested in honey production for profit, and I think the overall style of the hive would be easier for someone of my stature to work with. I've also contacted our local beekeeping organization regarding getting an Ohio reared queen and they suggest starting with one queen (Italian queen) and then replacing her with the Ohio queen in July or August to winter.
If I'm already planning on replacing my queen, would I still need two hives?

Andrew Dewey · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2012, 05:43:50 pm »

Depending on where you are located a top bar hive may make things much more difficult for you than a Langstroth (see the current ABJ for an article on the topic). Two hives are almost always better than 1 for starting out. The reason I hear most often in Bee Schools is so that you can visually compare the two hives and better judge how they are doing.

BrentX · « **Reply #2 on:** January 03, 2012, 06:14:04 pm »

Perhaps the most important reason to start out with two hives is that in the event something happens to your queen you can give some fresh eggs from the other hive for the queenless hive to make a new queen with. This forum is full of posts were stuff did happen to hives...it is part of beekeeping. So plan on some challenges coming your way too.

Another good reason for more than one hive is that even experienced beekeepers lose hives over the winter. It would be very disappointing to have just one hive and lose it, then have to start over in the spring. Having two hives is of course no guarantee, but it does improve the odds. Last year the aggregate hive survival rate for all beeks in my local club was less than 50 percent.

Regarding your queen(s), if I was wanting to make sure I had good local queens I would try to get nucs from a local beek as you have done. But if local queens were not available I would start out with what I could find and make my own local queens by splitting the hive as soon as the nuc built up (probably May around here). By splitting of course one ends up with an additional hive!

Don't let this throw you off. If you really want just one hive then do so. That is how I started, and there are plenty of people who manage fine with one hive. I wasn't one of them...once I got started I realized I WANTED more hives.

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2012, 06:48:16 pm »

Quote from: ryokomuyo on January 03, 2012, 05:10:00 pm

I'm looking into getting a Kenyan Top Bar to begin with,

Before you get a top bar hive, consider it's close cousin.... the long hive (also called a horizontal hive). It is a top bar hive that uses regular frames. So you get the advantages of a top bar hive including no heavy lifting. But you avoid the biggest problem with TBHs which is the adhesion of comb to the sides of the box. There is nothing magic or easy about TBHs and they can be a real pain.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm

BlueBee · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2012, 07:13:39 pm »

Ohio, you can start with one hive if you want. Nothing is written in stone in bee keeping. There’s arguments both ways with regards to how many hives to start with. Most beeks with experience will say to start out with more than one because you can use resources from one hive to help another in the event of a problem. That’s what experienced beeks do when we have a problem.

However until a new beek has a descent amount of experience under their belt, it’s my opinion that starting multiple hives is more likely to result in multiple failures and expense than massive success. It's hard to be perfect the first time you try something new. An investment analogy might help me express my opinion here. If a person hasn’t traded cattle futures before, would you start by trading a bunch contracts or just trade one at first? Doubling down isn’t always a good idea when you first start something new. (Yeah, I started with one hive, I only wish I had taken that wise approach when it came futures.)

Central Ohio has a pretty good climate for growing plants and probably bees. There is a good chance one hive could really take off in your climate and hence you could split that one into 2 or 3 in July if you wanted to. What I might do in your shoes is start with 1 package in the spring. If that really takes off, then split into 2 or 3 in the July and raise your own Ohio queen(s) via a walk away spilt. If the package fails for some reason in the spring, then I would re-start with a local Ohio Nuc/Hive in June. (Another good reason to listen to Frameshift regarding Long hives – you could move nuc frames into it)

backyard warrior · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2012, 09:32:48 pm »

Ohio in my opinion blue bee is right buy one package and do some mid summer splits and feed them 1to1 syrup to get them established before winter. Give the new hives some day old larva for the bees to raise their own queens. As far as the hive goes i would stick with langstroth why?? Depending on your climate if its cold which im assuming by the name ohio, the bees tend to starve themselves out they have a harder time moving side to side inside the hive to locate honey stores in the winter. With the langstroth hive its natural for the bees to want to move up into the top of the hive as the stores are consumed and at that point you can open the outer cover and give them some emergency feed without disrupting the hive too much in cold weather. Chris

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2012, 10:24:55 pm »

Quote from: backyard warrior on January 03, 2012, 09:32:48 pm

Depending on your climate if its cold which im assuming by the name ohio, the bees tend to starve themselves out they have a harder time moving side to side inside the hive to locate honey stores in the winter. With the langstroth hive its natural for the bees to want to move up into the top of the hive as the stores are consumed

I'm no expert on cold weather beekeeping so I won't dispute what you say. But ryokomuyo was saying he was looking at a TBH. If that's the choice, I would at least consider a Long Hive.

Our bees do not move side to side in the Long Hive in winter. They bring the honey to the cluster. Maybe in a very long cold winter when it never gets warm, that is not possible. I remember a beekeeper in Washington State say that in a Langstroth hive their bees stay at the top all winter.... so I guess they bring honey up to the top.

But one question I always wonder about is the efficiency of Langstroths in winter. If the bees start at the bottom and eat their way up, that means that all winter the heat is rising away from the cluster and up to the top of the stack. Doesn't sound very efficient. In a Long Hive the bees are always at the top so the heat stays on the cluster.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2012, 11:00:11 pm »

Queen rightness is often not a simple matter of having or not having a queen. It is a matter of not always knowing if there is a virgin that isn't laying or they are actually queenless. There is also the issue of laying workers. With a second hive you have the panacea for all queen issues... brood.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

Rich V · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2012, 01:00:27 am »

I first started with two hives as my mentor suggested, and I was very glad I did. From dead queens to laying workers. If I didn't have that second hive, I would have been dead in the water my first summer, so many things can go wrong. As a newbee you won't be able to see most things coming. I would suggest that you find a mentor and do as the instructor says, and get a second hive.

Godspeed

backyard warrior · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2012, 01:08:59 am »

Frameshift i hear what you are saying but according to this months january article in ABJ they say that the langstroth is the best all around hive especially in cold climates. If you get the ABJ take a look it talks about why the langstroth is best especially for beginners. Chris

BlueBee · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2012, 02:05:57 am »

Quote from: FRAMEshift on January 03, 2012, 10:24:55 pm

But ryokomuyo was saying he was looking at a TBH. If that's the choice, I would at least consider a Long Hive.

Frame, I think he's a her :)

ryokomuyo · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2012, 03:26:09 pm »

Quote from: Andrew Dewey on January 03, 2012, 05:43:50 pm

Depending on where you are located a top bar hive may make things much more difficult for you than a Langstroth (see the current ABJ for an article on the topic). Two hives are almost always better than 1 for starting out. The reason I hear most often in Bee Schools is so that you can visually compare the two hives and better judge how they are doing.

What article in ABJ are you referring to? I'm not a current subscriber, but the table of contents doesn't seem to list any articles on types of hives.

ryokomuyo · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2012, 03:40:58 pm »

Bluebee, you are correct I am a woman :)

Also, I do love your investment analogy, and it does reflect much of my thinking behind the question. I wanted to do one thing right and not extend my resources too far on my first try.

I spoke with someone from the Central Ohio Beekeeping Association, and he's selling bees and queens (marked) all through April (with Ohio queens available May-August). From everyone's advice, I think I'm going with two hives and hope for the best. If I need to split a hive in the summer, hopefully I'll be familiar enough with my bees that the task isn't quite as daunting as is sounds!

ryokomuyo · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2012, 03:59:57 pm »

Quote from: FRAMEshift on January 03, 2012, 06:48:16 pm

Quote from: ryokomuyo on January 03, 2012, 05:10:00 pm

I'm looking into getting a Kenyan Top Bar to begin with,

Before you get a top bar hive, consider it's close cousin.... the long hive (also called a horizontal hive). It is a top bar hive that uses regular frames. So you get the advantages of a top bar hive including no heavy lifting. But you avoid the biggest problem with TBHs which is the adhesion of comb to the sides of the box. There is nothing magic or easy about TBHs and they can be a real pain.

From my readings it seems that the TBH should have at least a 120 degree angle connecting the bottom and sides. Since this mimics the structure of the comb this should reduce the bees propensity to build on the sides of the hive.

AliciaH · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:45:28 pm »

ryokomuyo, I would also encourage two hives, so am glad you are considering it. My reasons are because of newly mated queens. I found out the hard way this year that if a newly mated queen starts to lay at the same time the laying workers kick in, the laying workers will kill her. The answer is a constant supply of open larvae (about one frame a week) from your second hive. The pheramones stav off the workers so the newly mated queen has a chance to succeed.

If you are trying to not overextend your resources, you could start with one package in April, order and received your Ohio queen in June, then split the hive for your new queen. Be sure to check with folks here about the best way to do that, for your new queen's sake. But it's an idea.

Good luck! Your in for an exciting year!

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2012, 09:46:36 pm »

Quote from: backyard warrior on January 04, 2012, 01:08:59 am

Frameshift i hear what you are saying but according to this months january article in ABJ they say that the langstroth is the best all around hive especially in cold climates. If you get the ABJ take a look it talks about why the langstroth is best especially for beginners. Chris

I don't read ABJ. I'm not sure how anyone could say that a particular hive design is best. Depends on what you care about. I don't like heavy lifting so a Langstroth would probably not be best for me. Tbeek and Michael Bush do well with Long Hives in very cold climates.

We started as beginners with a single Langstroth. Within a couple of months we were building our own Long Hives. Now we have no Langstroths and I don't think we will ever go back. But everyone has their own preferences so I just state what mine are and listen to what others prefer.

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2012, 09:52:07 pm »

Quote from: ryokomuyo on January 04, 2012, 03:59:57 pm

From my readings it seems that the TBH should have at least a 120 degree angle connecting the bottom and sides. Since this mimics the structure of the comb this should reduce the bees propensity to build on the sides of the hive.

Narrowing the bottom part of the hive does reduce the total comb size and makes it lighter. Maybe that accounts for less adhesion? But it also reduces the usable comb, so I don't think that's the most efficient way to go. Frames are cheap and work well. I don't see the advantage of limiting yourself to only a top bar when it is so easy to have sides and a bottom as well.

Not sure what you mean about mimicking the comb structure. How does it do that?

AliciaH · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2012, 10:28:51 pm »

In one of the talks at our state conference, numbers were given about frame weight. An average weight for a full deep frame, both sides, full and capped, was 8 pounds 3 oz. No, I don't know how many hives they pulled apart or if the frames were from 9- or 10-frame boxes.

The friend of mine that is moving to a TBH this spring had a hard time lifting her full deep frames to anything close to shoulder height (neck issues). In her case, the reduced weight of a TB frame is pretty much mandatory if she wants to keep working bees.

I like the comments about the best hive design is the one that works for the individual beekeeper. As long as the person is clear on the pros and cons of their chosen design, they're all good!

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:00:53 pm »

Quote from: AliciaH on January 04, 2012, 10:28:51 pm

The friend of mine that is moving to a TBH this spring had a hard time lifting her full deep frames to anything close to shoulder height (neck issues). In her case, the reduced weight of a TB frame is pretty much mandatory if she wants to keep working bees.

I'm not seeing why a TB frame is necessarily lighter than a medium or shallow frame. So many people (maybe not you :-D) assume that if you aren't using stacked Langstroth boxes, you can't use standard Langstroth frames. Long hives give you the escape from lifting boxes and the convenience of standard frames in various sizes. Just sayin'.

AliciaH · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:34:41 pm »

frameshift, I love it when you are "just sayin'". Gives me stuff to think about! :)

Actually, we are building the TBH to fit standard top bars from a Langstroth frame, that way she can replace them without having to build them. I'm assuming (always a dangerous thing, I know) that because the bottom two corners are going to be missing (because the comb will be rounded rather than drawn all the way out to a rectangle that isn't there) that the frame will be lighter than if it were in a Langstroth hive.

The reason she didn't opt to stick with a Langstroth and utilize westerns (mediums) or shallows was because of the overall box weight when full, not the weight of individual western- or shallow-sized frames when full. How long she would spend having to transfer frames back and forth to extra boxes in order to inspect all the boxes in a hive was a consideration.