Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?  (Read 2404 times)

Offline Bob Wilson

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
  • Gender: Male
Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« on: July 06, 2019, 09:57:16 pm »
I have foundationless frames in my long lang hive. They are doing well. About 15 filled out to some degree. Most are almost completely solid around four edges, however, July and August are blazing in Georgia. I do have my hive in shade from 1:00 PM onward, but I have been noticing the propolis melting, or at least becoming very soft and gluey. At what temperature do I need to worry about comb collapse? Is that an issue with foundationless beekeeping?

Offline cao

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
  • Gender: Male
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2019, 11:36:32 pm »
I think the biggest issue with foundationless frames is flipping them over to check the other side before they have attached it fully to the frame.  As long as there is enough bees they will keep the hive cool enough.  If you are worried about the heat then do less intensive inspections less often.  In other words let the bees do what they do.

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 11950
  • Gender: Male
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2019, 07:49:59 am »
X2

Online TheHoneyPump

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1193
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2019, 03:43:32 pm »
Beeswax melts near 145 degF.  The temperature is not exact, due to other stuff mixed in. It gets quite soft over 115 degF

The bees keep the hive at 95 degF by fanning and water evaporation.  If the ambient temperatures are much higher than 95, the advice is stay out and make sure the bees have access to a water source nearby so they can keep the AC on.  They will spend more time and energy hauling water and cooling than making honey during heat waves.  Expect honey production to go down, not up, when it is sunny and hot out there.
Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 6740
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2019, 06:15:40 am »
I think the biggest issue with foundationless frames is flipping them over to check the other side before they have attached it fully to the frame.  As long as there is enough bees they will keep the hive cool enough.  If you are worried about the heat then do less intensive inspections less often.  In other words let the bees do what they do.
M
X2


Yep
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17800
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2019, 09:15:40 am »
I wouldn?t open a hive in hot weather if there isn?t some support.  Probably in the 90s.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Bob Wilson

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
  • Gender: Male
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2019, 11:34:54 pm »
Well, I listened to everyone's advice to stay out of a foundationless frame hive in the hot summer, then went stupid again. The hive has dropped population drastically around the entrance, and I was worried about SHBs destroying the hive, or a backfilled brood nest. However, after I went in I had a honey comb break out of a frame (my first) and even after that horrendous drippy mess, I tried to get into the brood nest, where I forgot I had placed an empty frame, and managed to collapse that partially made comb also. It is still in the hive, broken off and leaning against another comb. It was a complete fiasco. I didn't get a chance to check for brood or eggs. I hope I did not kill the queen.

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 6740
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2019, 11:40:54 pm »
Well, I listened to everyone's advice to stay out of a foundationless frame hive in the hot summer, then went stupid again. The hive has dropped population drastically around the entrance, and I was worried about SHBs destroying the hive, or a backfilled brood nest. However, after I went in I had a honey comb break out of a frame (my first) and even after that horrendous drippy mess, I tried to get into the brood nest, where I forgot I had placed an empty frame, and managed to collapse that partially made comb also. It is still in the hive, broken off and leaning against another comb. It was a complete fiasco. I didn't get a chance to check for brood or eggs. I hope I did not kill the queen.

Maybe not.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17800
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2019, 12:06:30 pm »
The thing is to do it early in the morning.  Like 1/2 hour before sunrise.  When it's still cool out.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 6740
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2021, 12:35:06 pm »
Bob, I had some problems with foundationless collapsing, even when (not) opening the hive in the hot summer in my area. I remedied this by using fishing line, the X pattern as well as the straight across pattern. However; the most efficient method I have used is small wood skewers as taught here by Paus. (A dollar a pack at Dollar Tree or Dollar General). I simply made a pattern from a top bar and a bottom bar by drilling two holes in each the correct size, both in unisense. Once the frames were assembled, I would go back, using the pattern, drill and insert the skewers with a small dot of Titebond 3 glue at each junction hole, breaking off any excessive piece of skewer. This cured my newer wax honeycomb failure. I also learned when doing this you should stagger these with frames of drawn out comb insuring the bees will draw the comb straight through the line or skewers, giving a good solid straight new comb. I am now in the process of getting away for foundationless. Foundationless was fine when I had only a hand full of hives.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Bob Wilson

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
  • Gender: Male
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2021, 11:19:42 pm »
Greetings, Ben. You resurrected a thread from 2 years ago. That was my first summer, but I have not experienced any problems with my foundationless frames and hot Georgia summers.
I don't add any line or skewers because I crush and strain. With only 3 hives and a couple of nucs, it works for me.

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 6740
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2021, 11:54:44 pm »
Greetings, Ben. You resurrected a thread from 2 years ago. That was my first summer, but I have not experienced any problems with my foundationless frames and hot Georgia summers.
I don't add any line or skewers because I crush and strain. With only 3 hives and a couple of nucs, it works for me.

Quote
You resurrected a thread from 2 years ago.

Yes that is true, I ran upon it while browsing. I figured whether you could or could not use the information after this period of time, someone else might find it useful. It is good you have found a method that works for you. Keep up the good work!
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17800
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2021, 10:45:47 pm »
When I had issues was with new comb and a strong flow.  New soft wax is very soft.  Once you have some established comb it's much less of a problem.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline FloridaGardener

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 460
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2021, 02:27:05 pm »
Re: Soft white wax and the heavy honey band on top.

I still have a top bar hive.  The first colony drew nearly perfect comb. (Eventually I split, sold one, and moved the rest into a Lang). 
I put a swarm in the TBH three months ago. The second colony isn't so tidy WRT: attachments to the side and general wonkiness. I've struggled with soft wax and heavy honey too.  Now I bring this with me:

- A large tupperware, or food grade 20" Sterlite tub with closing lid
- Parchment paper from the grocery store.  (You can use waxed paper but honey scrapes off parchment better.)
- An extra wide silicon spatula.
- A clean working tray like this one: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/smula-tray-clear-40041131/ or a full-sheet commercial cooking tray.
- Rubber bands or cotton string and toothpicks

As soon as you pic up the white wax, support it with the spatula and get it right over to the tray lined with a sheet of parchment.  Lay it down like fabric, bottom first then the top.  It may fall partly out of the frame,  but be supported until it can lay flat.
Cut off the honey you want  and seal it in the tupperware.  If there is brood, use the rubber bands/string/toothpicks to wrap it back into the frame.
You can save almost every drop of honey from the parchment.  It's sort of kitchen-garden beekeeping...but better than the loss of the resources.

Offline Robo

  • Technical
  • Administrator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 6762
  • Gender: Male
  • Beekeep On!
    • Bushkill Bee Vac
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2021, 07:29:52 am »
Greetings, Ben. You resurrected a thread from 2 years ago. That was my first summer, but I have not experienced any problems with my foundationless frames and hot Georgia summers.
I don't add any line or skewers because I crush and strain. With only 3 hives and a couple of nucs, it works for me.

I run 1 horizontal wire mid-frame and it works wonders.   Cutting around 1 wire for crush and strain does not take much effort, but the protection of 1 wire is priceless.  Especially when you accidentally rotate the frame to look for eggs.  Habits from years of foundation beekeeping are hard to break......
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline paus

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 590
  • Gender: Male
Re: Comb collapse in foundationless deep frames?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2021, 09:32:50 am »
when I build my frames I drill 2 or 3 holes in the bottom of the frame and insert a skewer in each hole. then I drive the point into the groove in the top bar.  I can do this as fast as wire , also I make jigs so I can drill 3-4 bottoms at a time and they are all alike.