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Author Topic: Adding Your First Super  (Read 11789 times)

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2018, 08:37:41 am »
I would shake the bees off before doing that. That way there is no queen and no drones above the excluder. the bees will be back on the brood in no time.
the bees should be able to occupy the space, though.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2018, 11:24:08 am »
If you remove the excluder, the bees are more likely to move up.
Jim
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2018, 12:11:12 pm »
>First, If you want the bees to draw out comb, you have to feed them syrup continuously.  If there is a flow available from forage they will slow down or even ignore the feed.  Soon as the natural flow slows or is not of their taste for the day they will be back on the syrup.  If there is no appreciable flow nor syrup, they will not make wax, they will not draw comb.

I find feeding continuously a very bad idea especially with a small colony with limited comb to store it.  The queen quickly has no where to lay and they either don't build up at all or they swarm before they build up at all.  I've never really seen them stop taking syrup, though enough people have said they have to make me think that SOMETIMES they do.  Bees are hoarders and they will stock away syrup filling every available cell.  I think the problem really comes down to the lack of feedback mechanisms to control the foraging of nectar.  Under normal circumstances the forager who comes back with nectar and no one unloads them, they wander around for a while in the hive and eventually get recruited to forage for something else.  When they are getting syrup from a feeder inside the hive there is no receiver bee to refuse to unload them so they just keep moving the syrup.  I think the bees actually see a feeder inside as a "spill" that needs to be cleaned up rather than foraging.  It's true they can't and won't make wax without some surplus of nectar coming in, but feeding interferes with the feedback that keeps the brood cells open for the queen to lay.  If you want bees to build on the other side of the excluder you will need to get them going through it.  Either leave it off until they are started drawing comb above the excluder or put some brood above the excluder.  I would just quit using the excluder...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm#excluders

"Queen Excluders... are very useful in queen rearing, and in uniting colonies; but for the purpose they are generally used, viz., for confining the queen to the lower hive through the honey season, I have no hesitation in condemning them. As I have gone into this question fully on a previous occasion, I will quote my remarks:--
"The most important point to observe during the honey season in working to secure a maximum crop of honey is to keep down swarming, and the main factors to this end, as I have previously stated, are ample ventilation of the hives, and adequate working-room for the bees. When either or both these conditions are absent, swarming is bound to take place. The free ventilation of a hive containing a strong colony is not so easily secured in the height of the honey season, even under the best conditions, that we can afford to take liberties with it; and when the ventilating--space between the lower and upper boxes is more than half cut off by a queen-excluder, the interior becomes almost unbearable on hot days. The results under such circumstances are that a very large force of bees that should be out working are employed fanning-, both inside and out, and often a considerable part of the colony will be hanging outside the hive in enforced idleness until it is ready to swarm.
"Another evil caused by queen-excluders, and tending to the same end--swarming--is that during a brisk honey-flow the bees will not readily travel through them to deposit their loads of surplus honey in the supers, but do store large quantities in the breeding-combs, and thus block the breeding-space. This is bad enough at any time, but the evil is accentuated when it occurs in the latter part of the season. A good queen gets the credit of laying from two to three thousand eggs per day: supposing she is blocked for a few days, and loses the opportunity of laying, say, from fifteen hundred to two thousand eggs each day, the colony would quickly dwindle down, especially as the average life of the bee in the honey season is only about six weeks.
"For my part I care not where the queen lays--the more bees the more honey. If she lays in some of the super combs it can be readily rectified now and again by putting the brood below, and side combs of honey from the lower box above; some of the emerging brood also may be placed at the side of the upper box to give plenty of room below. I have seen excluders on in the latter part of the season, the queens idle for want of room, and very little brood in the hives, just at a time when it is of very great importance that there should be plenty of young bees emerging."--Isaac Hopkins, The Australasian Bee Manual
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2018, 03:24:24 pm »
If you remove the excluder, the bees are more likely to move up.
Jim

if there is a flow and enough bees, they will move up. At least one drawn comb in the super helps and is enough. later in the season foundation might suffice, as there are enough bees and they already know where to store honey. not entering a super for a hive either means it is too weak (or too many boxes for brood) or no flow on.

Offline max2

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2018, 06:37:14 pm »
A couple of questions come to mind.
1. Move the chosen brood frame to the super with the bees or shake them off. I'm not the most experienced at finding the Queen among the crowded frame.
!!!!!!You can shake them off

2. Place a brand new frame with foundation where I took the frame from?
!!!Yes.
 This might see an empty frame between brood frames or close the brood frames in & give them the new frame on the outside?
!!No, place it right in the middle. If you have a flow at Yamba like we have here, the bees will have drawn the foundation in a couple of days

Offline eltalia

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2018, 07:29:10 pm »
There exists sufficient misinformation in this topic discussed here to prompt a post from this corner
of the room , a step long now loathed as contrary views posted only seen to attract derison along
with implied threat of banishment - both toothless beasts.
The following is submitted for thought only by the OP(Brian), I will not be entering into discussion
further.

The whole question of feeding _should be_ answerable in simply noting any presence of wild(feral)
colonies in the local pollination map. Where no ferals are present bees have decided that area is not
 suitable in sustaining their reproduction, the very factor bees exist for... from the bees point of view.
However Man through a combination (more often) of avarice and failed insight into bee biology insists
on placing multiple boxes of bees within targeted flora bursts of short duration ("six weeks") with no
intention to move those colonies on, and so supplement feeding applies largely for the remaining
46 weeks in most years. All designed to return a "honey 'crop'" from within a nonviable location.

Notwithstanding the quoted words of Issac Hopkins of a time past -  when there was yet much to learn
around Apis husbandry in this Country - the use of queen excluders above a broodnest has develope
into an art form. One embraced by both polllinators and honey producers in this Country today, yet still
remains a mystery to many a method b'kpr - as is well iluminated within comments here(thread).
Further, the art of those manipulations -  as Issac touches on - is lost to those unable or unwilling to
control the broodnest development for either the bees or Man's benefit (or Both) in reaching expected
outcomes of keeping bees in a box.
Without QX use the broodnest runs riot throughout the stack in seasonal variation - as most do know -
whereas with selective QX use the bees are controlled in what goes where: see attached graphic.
Much of the argument around QX use - or nonuse - is based on the erroneous philosophy(?) of the
queen decreeing her laying patterns, whereas recent study has reinforced long known brood patterns
in that all she controls is the distribution of genes, and that too appears to be controlled to some
extent by the community.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6040692/
Citing ventilation and/or stores transfer as reasons not to use a QX is not upheld in examining closely
any QX set for some time as bees do propolise  QX penetrations in setting airpaths for ventilation, and
in forming beespace as highways for transfer by courier bees - the latter poorly comprehended by
method b'kps and ignored wholly by those promoting dual entrances in a stack (top entrance on super).
Many view QX propolisation as a nuisance, something which again highlights a total absence of
understanding how a stack works, for bees.

Whilst Man's logic leads a belief bees will not "crowd out a queen from the feed" the evidence of bees
backfilling with or without a QX brings out the error of holding to that belief, an error which leads a
FAQ in "how do I get bees to fill the super". The answer to which - when correct - sees bees move
broodnest stores up, inclusive of any stored syrup. The strength of denial in that syrup contaminating
honey extracted is seen in b'kps refusing to add dye to syrup.
The fact syrup in honey is undetectable is relied on, by many, internationally - and is just one reason
why Australian honey is so highly valued, globally.... a status currently the fight of one bloke in
upholding.
https://www.gofundme.com/48jlk4w


As my response to Brian's question I state without compunction the b'kpr never interferes with an
expanding broodnest. Frames can be manipulated at the extents to max out the broodchamber, but
interference within the nest itself - particularly reversing frame orientation - is just going to bring
flow in expansion undone, as Brian discovered.
Foraging in and if itself has zero impact on the outcome Brian created.
When 100% of frames hold a minimum of 60% coverage by bees _and_ the bees are washboarding
the walls a super can be added above a QX, the outer stores frames (#9+#1) moved up and new
frames added to #2+#8 in the broodchamber.

Your time in reading is apppreciated but bees will thank you for any diligence adopted from it.

Cheers.

Bill

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Offline max2

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2018, 04:27:50 am »
Thanks Bill.
About QX and ventilation.
I have not had anissue here in SE Qld.
What my bees are doing regularly is eating out odd parts on the edges of my all wax frames: corners, on top, at the bottom, on sides...only to fill them in later.
I wonder...how is ventiation, air and bee movemnet impacted in the case of plastic frames, FLOW hives?
Just thinking...slowly...we had some hot weather:)

Offline Acebird

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2018, 09:01:18 am »
if there is a flow and enough bees, they will move up.

There are many a case especially with new beeks that they swarm with an empty super above.  I would be leary taking your advice with new equipment.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2018, 04:22:21 pm »
As I am extending rapidly, I am using new equipment all the time....
LOOKING for swarm-tendencies is a must in all cases, circumstances provided.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2018, 08:08:57 am »
New equipment with new bees with little knowledge there of?
Brian Cardinal
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2018, 03:33:41 pm »
I consider it the duty of any animal-keeper to learn all the theoretical basics (and preferably some practical ones under guidance) BEFORE getting the animal.
I have to confess I had a lot of on-the-job-training, too and did make mistakes.

Offline Barraboy

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2018, 04:56:50 pm »
Its probably been already stated, but the bees will move up when they need more space. Manipulations of all sorts may or may not help, but you cannot push bees to conform to your thinking. You may try and even think you succeed, but never forget we get to work "with" bees.
So many factors affect, but nothing beats a strong flow to get it happening.
Patience, Patience. So many new beeks are demanding and anxious re their bees, Chill out, relax!
Time will even out your human demands of the bees.

Offline Butteredloins

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2018, 05:16:16 pm »
I've added supers to my hives but the bees don't seem to be drawing out comb and my area is in a honey flow. I moved frames up but it's been 3 weeks and still the same or very little comb drawn out. Is it because I don't use wax sheets it takes them longer. Or should I feed them sugar. Just thought they would be able to get honey this year but seems probably not the rate they are going

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2018, 10:25:33 pm »
The bees can draw their own comb faster than they can draw on foundation. Just put a wood strip in the slot and melted bees wax to paint just the edge.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2018, 02:59:22 am »
well. in a strong flow they might be overwhelmed a bit. but they will be able to cope with building their own comb. just give them LITTLE to work on. In other words: I would remove space.
Boxes full of bees? that`s where they should be at.

Offline Helene

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2019, 02:20:52 am »
Hello everyone, I am a brand new BK from Sydney area.

I have learned lots just through reading these posts, but still can't decide if my bees are doing OK or not.

I finally got my first package early December... after a long wait. Everything went well since the package installation into my 8 frames Langstroth brood box. I fed them 1:1 sugar syrup for the first month, but then it seemed that everything was in bloom, the foragers were very active and the frames were being drawn - so I stopped feeding.

I have been inspecting every 2 weeks roughly. They seemed to be going well but lately, I see very little progress from one inspection to the next. The last 2 times, the 8 frames were nearly all drawn, but a couple remaining empty (particularly the outer ones). Otherwise there is ripening nectar, pollen stores, capped honey, and brood at all stages. But there is not much of anything. And I don't think the population has grown. I added an ideal super 4 weeks ago, thinking that they needed it (since the brood box was nearly all drawn), but there is still nothing drawn on it.

Is it possible that I am at the stage where all the old package bees have died ( it is now about 10 weeks) and that there still isn't enough young bees for the hive to have shown any obvious sign of growth? I would not worry if we were in Spring but we are at the end of Summer and I don't know if they still have the time to build up population until Winter... I was told I needed them to go into Winter with 2-3 ideal supers full of honey...

Should I feed?
I would hate to have to add more bees, or to requeen as this stage...

Any suggestions?

Many thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge :)

 Helene

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2019, 07:14:59 am »
Welcome to Beemaster.

Sounds like there is no food coming in. Time to start feeding them to get ready for winter. Do not use a front entrance. Place an empty super on top of the inner board and place a quart of 2 to 1, sugar to water over the center hole and put the top on. Once winter sets in, you can then use fondant in the jar.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Helene

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2019, 03:02:38 pm »
Thank you so much for your answer Jim.
Ok I will start feeding 2:1 sugar syrup. I have a great top feeder containing several litres so I will use that (I bought it as an upgrade to the ziplock plastic bags as it does not require disturbing the bees).
May I ask why you suggest to remove the entrance reducer? Will that not tempt robbers? At the moment, there is no traffic congestion at the entrance, although it is quite busy (I have three entrance sizes, and I have it on ?medium?).
Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge 😊
Helene

Offline Helene

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2019, 03:27:28 pm »
Actually did I misunderstand about the front entrance? Was that referring to not using an entrance feeder - rather than reduced? Thanks.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2019, 05:10:24 pm »
if the hive is small, give the syrup in small quantities, so it doesnt spoil.

NO flow? I thought Australia was a bees paradise`? do inquire locally.

 

anything