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Author Topic: Adding Your First Super  (Read 13083 times)

Offline BrianP_69

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Adding Your First Super
« on: October 20, 2018, 07:01:14 am »
This may be a pretty generalized question & the answer may be a factor of a multitude of of variances but can anyone tell me their own experience of how long it roughly took for a 4 frame Nuc to completely draw out a full 10 frame brood box. My last inspection a week ago had around 7 frames drawn out, 4 good frames of brood, both sides with the last three partially drawn on one side & nothing on the other. I spun those frames around to give them plain foundation to draw out. A week later on my next inspection has seen that drawn out comb on those frames now completely gone & now just foundation. They seem to have unbuilt it for some reason. We did have a full week of rainy weather. On a plus note, the brood frames have extended out to the third frame in from one side ( 6 frames of brood ) & many more bees covering the tops of the frames when opening the lid. The bees are covering a solid 6, 7 or so frame at present. I'm just curious to know if my girls are on track or not. I got my Nuc on the 12th September.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 07:14:00 am by BrianP_69 »

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2018, 10:22:46 am »
It all depends on the food supply, and the bees. Another hive right next to it could possibly completely fill out all 10 frames.
I recommend you move the frames to next to the brood frames. Then do it again when they are full. If the weather is warm, you can put one between the brood frames.
Jim
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Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2018, 07:37:27 pm »
Thanks Jim.
If I recall, there is drawn out comb next to the brood frames on either side of the box so the Queen has plenty of areas to lay. They seem to be concentrating on only building just what's required for expansion which I would assume is quite normal. If the food supply is more abundant, I guess they would be building more cells on the frames toward the outside of the box to store nectar etc. They seem to be bringing in a let of pollen but from memory, there wasn't a huge amount of stored nectar & no capped nectar. It's in there as I can smell it every time I walk past the hive. Can you recall how long any of your hives took before you added your first super? 2 months, 3 months, etc?
Cheers

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2018, 09:50:30 pm »
51 views & only 1 reply?
Come on guys.
Can someone give me an idea of the time it took with any of your hives to get your first super on?

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2018, 10:19:08 pm »
First, If you want the bees to draw out comb, you have to feed them syrup continuously.  If there is a flow available from forage they will slow down or even ignore the feed.  Soon as the natural flow slows or is not of their taste for the day they will be back on the syrup.  If there is no appreciable flow nor syrup, they will not make wax, they will not draw comb.

Second, to draw comb they have to have alot of bees of the right age.  Not all bees can make wax all the time.  There is a certain age that they are wax makers and that is only for a few days then they move on to other chores and the next wave of young bees become wax makers.  You need to have bees and a steady rank of ages of bees passing through the wax maker age stage.  If there is a gap in the ranks as the bees age that gap appears in the wax makers.  At that time drawing of comb will stop, and combs may even contract a bit as the bees chew off balls of wax and take them to use elsewhere for example for capping brood cells.

Going to your question as to when to add a second box.  Answer is add the second box as soon as they have enough bees to patrol it AND that the day and night time temperatures are warm enough that they will not lose brood from tightening the cluster every night.  Overnight temperatures always above 15 deg C.

For your question as to how fast they will draw out comb and fill a box.  Just as an example:  When I need a bunch of new frames, I select a strong hive of 1 or 2 deep brood boxes (langstroth 10 frame) that is established and has the brood boxes already established and utilized.  In warm weather and a good natural flow on ... Plop on and entire box of new bar 10 frames of foundation and put a hive top feeder half full of syrup on top of that.  Under ideal conditions they will draw out every frame and half fill each of them in entire box in one week.

Sounds like you need to:
1) put continuous feed on your nuc/hive
2) make sure the queen and brood are healthy and expanding, giving a stream of ages of bees passing through wax maker stage
3) check your weather pattern, ambient temperatures, to know if conditions are favourable for the nest to be expanding without suffering a set back. Keep them tight if it is cool.  If it is warm, add space and do so regularly to make them feel like their house is always just a bit too big.

PS:  do not go spending unnecessary time shifting frames around.  Bees spend a spectacular amount of time undoing and redoing work to correct what the beekeeper did to them. The beekeepers do not realize how badly they set back new colonies and nucs. Soon as you put the lid back on the bees get busy to undo what you did and get things back to where they want it. Nothing else goes on and after that will they move forward again. They will not draw comb on the frames you want nor the way you want. They will draw comb and arrange the way THEY want it.  So just leave them alone if you want them to expand.  Your only role is to control pests and diseases, give them space to live, give them support resources when they need it, and all otherwise let the bees be the bees.  So, just keep the feeder full and let them have at it.  Remove the odd piece of wild comb of course but otherwise just stay out.  When they are full up into the second box and moving into the third, only then may you start thinking about frame manipulations. At that point you will have less impact on their overall master plan.  They will also have a lot more bees available to undo the mess you ve made.

Does that help?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 01:18:50 am by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline max2

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2018, 11:19:49 pm »
"Can someone give me an idea of the time it took with any of your hives to get your first super on?"
Honey Pump has given some back ground information but you are in NSW - not Canada.
The simple answer is - it depends. I had supers readdy in less then a month but this is not too common. It could take from 1 month to...a year.
A few hints:
- don't feed where you are - it is Spring  and everything is flowering.
- don't move a super on too early - I assume you have to deal with SHB. Make sure the bees can  control the pace you give them.
- be patient!

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2018, 12:49:58 am »
Thanks HoneyPump & max.
Exactly the info I was after. There's a good pollen source here at the moment & they're bringing in plenty.
I'll skip feeding them & just let them expand as they see fit. There's a lot of activity around the hive & on my last inspection, the brood is healthy & there's heaps of different sized larvae in the cells. I did squash a couple of beetles but didn't see any more.
So much to learn & I guess patience is one of them.
Cheers guys

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2018, 01:30:51 am »
As your hive expands, keep some simple math in mind when you are looking at space requirements.  Be patient, but stay ahead of them.

A full frame of brood makes for 3 frames of walking working bees when they emerge.  The frame they are emerging from plus 2 frames = 3.  Make sure you stay ahead of that curve by at least 1 week to avoid crowding and subsequent swarming.  Give them that extra space at 1 to 2 weeks before they need it. 

When you look in on them note how many frames of bees there are and how much brood is in progress.  The math is that in 1 weeks time following your inspection the bees are going to need;  the number of frames of bees seen + 2 frames more for each frame of brood seen.  Add that space sooner rather than later.

Example.  Let's say the colony is in a single 10 frame box.  You do a brief inspection, making sure to put each frame back in the exact same position and orientation that it came from.  When all done, you saw 6 frames covered in bees.  Of those frames, 3 frames are almost fully brood.  Therefore, in 1 to 2 weeks time your bees are going to need 6+(2x3) = 12 frames of total space to expand onto.  The box is 10 frames, the bees are going to need 12 soon.  The math says that at the end of the following week you will go add another box so they have that extra 2 frames of space available or the bees will be feeling crowded and may begin swarming tendencies.

Later on you inspect again.  The hive is now in 2 boxes, 10 frames each.  You do an inspection, again making sure to put each frame back in the exact same position and orientation that it came from.  When all done, you saw 9 frames covered in bees.  Of those frames, 4 frames are almost fully brood.  Therefore, in 1 to 2 weeks time your bees are going to need 9+(2x4) = 17 frames of total space to expand onto.  There are 2 boxes of 10 frames each, 20 frames of space, the bees are going to need 17. The math says that they are fine and should be happy in the space that they have. Do not add another box ... yet.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 01:53:07 am by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2018, 02:29:34 am »
Thanks HoneyPump, some great info there.
From memory, when I opened the hive, there were 6 frames covered in bees & the two outer frames on each side ( 10 frame brood box )
some bees were on them but no drawn out comb, just wax foundation. I'll do another inspection next weekend & note the numbers.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2018, 03:12:25 am »
Hi Brian,
I didn`t understand where You are at, so I can only describe what I do - in spring, and on from there.
THP had a lot of knowledge. I guess northwest Canada is different from most places.
In my experience (and not mine alone) swarming is not only decided by not enough room. So I keep the bees pretty tightly. BUT - I have a very high bottom, so they hang in there. My brood-space is small. Less than 1 ten-frame-box mostly.
I put on a super over excluder only when
1. there are enough bees to occupy it at once.
2. the flow makes it necessary.
after that I add supers as needed. When the 2nd combs from the edges are beginning to shine white from being drawn out. And of course anticipationg the flow. This might take a few years to be able to judge on depedning on your area.

there would be more- but my little one just needs attention.

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2018, 05:34:08 am »
Thanks blackforest.
The bees are solidly over 6 frames so it appears I still have some time before adding my super.
I'm using a full depth 10 frame box for the brood. All supers are 10 frame full depth also.
As a new beekeeper, I guess I'm worrying about things I don't yet understand, that's why I'm here.
I've had the hive going on 6 weeks & haven't even located my Queen ( haven't tried hard to find her ) but there is a large number of larvae at different stages so I know she's there. The main concerns for me other than accidentally killing my Queen is worrying about whether or not the bees are finding enough resources for the growing number of bees. The brood frames are well laid, top to bottom & edge to edge so she's doing a great job. I often watch the bees coming back to the hive & see 3 different coloured pollen being bought in so the foragers are doing a fantastic job as well. I didn't notice a lot of stored nectar which roused my concern to their nectar resources available.
I'm beginning to understand the life cycle of the hive & really enjoying it so far. Observe more, worry less from now on.


Offline Acebird

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2018, 08:41:18 am »
I've had the hive going on 6 weeks & haven't even located my Queen ( haven't tried hard to find her ) but there is a large number of larvae at different stages so I know she's there. The main concerns for me other than accidentally killing my Queen is worrying about whether or not the bees are finding enough resources for the growing number of bees.

I feel comfortable if there is a honey cell for each brood cell per week until the flow.  Once the flow starts resources is not an issue until it stops.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2018, 02:11:37 pm »
Thanks blackforest.
The bees are solidly over 6 frames so it appears I still have some time before adding my super.
I'm using a full depth 10 frame box for the brood. All supers are 10 frame full depth also.
As a new beekeeper, I guess I'm worrying about things I don't yet understand, that's why I'm here.
I've had the hive going on 6 weeks & haven't even located my Queen ( haven't tried hard to find her ) but there is a large number of larvae at different stages so I know she's there. The main concerns for me other than accidentally killing my Queen is worrying about whether or not the bees are finding enough resources for the growing number of bees. The brood frames are well laid, top to bottom & edge to edge so she's doing a great job. I often watch the bees coming back to the hive & see 3 different coloured pollen being bought in so the foragers are doing a fantastic job as well. I didn't notice a lot of stored nectar which roused my concern to their nectar resources available.
I'm beginning to understand the life cycle of the hive & really enjoying it so far. Observe more, worry less from now on.

Sounds like You got some time still,
BUT as THP described nicely, Your hive is gonna grow really rapidly. So watch it closley and do add another box when the bees are sort of broiling when you lift the lid. might be in a few days. If a good flow sets in before that, give it earlier.
You will notice the flow when bees are really flying like crazy.
DO NOT let them get hungry. as long as there is no supers on, give em some syrup if none is coming in. not to much, just to keep them happy. And: alive. syrup in the supers just is not the real thing.

whats your climate, where you at`?

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2018, 11:26:17 pm »
Thanks blackforest.
I spoke to three commercial beekeepers locally who never supplement the bees food source.
I do wonder if giving them an abundance of nectar they may build comb on the remaining frames in the brood box & fill it with syrup taking away the cells required for the Queen in the absence of a honey super. We are in Spring here at the moment & average temperatures are 13-22 deg Celsius with an average of 5 days rainfall.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Adding Your First Super
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2018, 02:34:33 am »
Thanks blackforest.
The bees are solidly over 6 frames so it appears I still have some time before adding my super.
I'm using a full depth 10 frame box for the brood. All supers are 10 frame full depth also.
As a new beekeeper, I guess I'm worrying about things I don't yet understand, that's why I'm here.
I've had the hive going on 6 weeks & haven't even located my Queen ( haven't tried hard to find her ) but there is a large number of larvae at different stages so I know she's there. The main concerns for me other than accidentally killing my Queen is worrying about whether or not the bees are finding enough resources for the growing number of bees. The brood frames are well laid, top to bottom & edge to edge so she's doing a great job. I often watch the bees coming back to the hive & see 3 different coloured pollen being bought in so the foragers are doing a fantastic job as well. I didn't notice a lot of stored nectar which roused my concern to their nectar resources available.
I'm beginning to understand the life cycle of the hive & really enjoying it so far. Observe more, worry less from now on.

Based on this, you need to add a box now. And feed.  There will soon be a lot of bees in there and a lot of hungry mouths to that need to eat.  New bees do no forage.  They tend the hive, nurse larvae, and make wax.  If you are serious about drawing comb and building out a hive, you have to feed.  At minimum until the first waves of young bees turn to older forager bees. Just because there are flowers does not mean the bees have resources. The box may be boiling over with bees, yet They may not have enough of a foraging force able to supply the demands of the expanding colony within the hive. By feeding you are putting what they need right where they need it without having to wait for it

There is a difference between getting a new hive built out and established vs managing an already built out hive.  The new hive needs 8x more resources than the established one.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2018, 03:08:57 am »
Again, something I didn't know. Thanks so much for the advice. Do you think with feeding it may be problematic that the bees may use drawn comb to store sugar syrup & take away space needed for the Queen to lay?
Is it a concern that if feeding, you are creating a problem for the population finding their own nectar resources if none are available? I don't intend to artificially feed all the time, they need to do it themselves. Remembering too I am only using a single 10 frame brood box.
Cheers

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2018, 04:05:53 am »
THP and also me only use one brood-box (me even less usually), too. The bees will put breeding first, so they won`t clog up the comb with syrup. ONLY if you feed too much. That takes quite a bit to fill out the box. Or if you don`t add a super when flow comes in. There are only a few flows that clog up the brood-nest. giving more space doesn`t alter that. I often have practically NO honey to speak of in the brood-nest. It`s above the excluder.
The bees will always prefer a natural nectar-(or dew-honey) source over feed. They will just neglect the feed or only go at it at night or in weather they cannot forage or gather.
a (constant) flow of some sort (artificial or natural) is necessary to build comb, either natural comb or just drawing foundation. Bees will only build what they need.
If you are in doubt about the stores of your hive, guess at it. I would say: 2,5 kg per full and capped Langstroth-deep-frame (that about right? may be a little more  even).
If you feed the bees with supers on and honey in them when the flow stops, feeding of course may result in feed in your supers. that is a delicate maneuver I never do. or I would feed honey in case the bees need it.

Offline max2

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2018, 05:15:11 am »
Brian - where in NSW are you?
I'm North of Brisbane and everything is flowering. We are taking honey off for the 5 th time in some cases. My best hive has probably produced close to 150 kg of honey so far.
Feeding in our Spring - never if the weather is sunny, indeed I have never feed bees sugar syrup in 40 plus yesr of Beekeeping here. Beekeeping is local.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2018, 05:40:37 am »
Brian - where in NSW are you?
I'm North of Brisbane and everything is flowering. We are taking honey off for the 5 th time in some cases. My best hive has probably produced close to 150 kg of honey so far.
Feeding in our Spring - never if the weather is sunny, indeed I have never feed bees sugar syrup in 40 plus yesr of Beekeeping here. Beekeeping is local.

that sounds like the right answer.

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Adding Your First Super
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2018, 05:58:46 am »
Brian - where in NSW are you?
I'm North of Brisbane and everything is flowering. We are taking honey off for the 5 th time in some cases. My best hive has probably produced close to 150 kg of honey so far.
Feeding in our Spring - never if the weather is sunny, indeed I have never feed bees sugar syrup in 40 plus yesr of Beekeeping here. Beekeeping is local.

Thanks Max.
I sent you a PM but not sure if you got it.