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Title: Foundationless frames
Post by: Shawn on March 06, 2009, 11:04:49 am
Does anyone have a photo of a foundationless frame with starter strips as an example for a newbee? I think it would be great for a photo due to I have seen post of people asking questions on what kind of starter strips, how are they attached, and so on.
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: oldenglish on March 06, 2009, 12:16:36 pm
Check out this link, it includes instructions on two types of setup and photos.

http://www.nwdba.org/foundationless.html
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Robo on March 06, 2009, 12:19:43 pm
Here are some before and after pictures of what I do

(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/photos/d/326-1/Picture.jpg)

(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/photos/d/328-2/Picture+012.jpg)


BTW,  I use coraplast starter strips and wire my frames.
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: ArmucheeBee on March 06, 2009, 12:31:40 pm
So if you use popsicle sticks there is no point in having one pointing down-vertical?  you can just glue them in horizontal with the top bar so that about 1/2 inch is showing all the way across the bar?
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Shawn on March 06, 2009, 12:50:01 pm
Wow. That helped a bunch. Great photos. Hopefulyl more people will post their frames and how they do it.
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Robo on March 06, 2009, 02:16:30 pm
So if you use popsicle sticks there is no point in having one pointing down-vertical?  you can just glue them in horizontal with the top bar so that about 1/2 inch is showing all the way across the bar?

I never used Popsicle sticks (too much work), but there is no need to put one vertical.

Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: oldenglish on March 06, 2009, 03:52:47 pm
I like just using the wedge from the top bar, that way I dont need to buy anything else. That is also another reason I dont use foundation starter strips.
I did enjoy filling the slot with wax but it does take a little longer and I had to buy the wax as I dont have any yet.
After assembling 80 frames I think I may just use the wedge bar as it was the easiest and cheapest. the one thing I changed was not to glue as is shown but to just staple the bar.
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Kathyp on March 06, 2009, 07:36:11 pm
i have tons of foundation from some bulk buys.  i cut it in strips with a pizza cutter and glue it in with wax.  i use the wax because i have so much and it's easy to do.  a tube made for the job, or an old glass syringe will do. 
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Shawn on March 06, 2009, 11:27:47 pm
So the only thing you are doing is showing the bees where to start their comb. The starter strip is in the center so that they build from both sides per frame.
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Robo on March 07, 2009, 07:23:48 am
Correct, just give them a guide where you want the center of the comb to be.  Make sure the hive is level too, otherwise the comb won't stay centered in the frame as they build down.
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Michael Bush on March 07, 2009, 09:56:33 am
>So the only thing you are doing is showing the bees where to start their comb. The starter strip is in the center so that they build from both sides per frame.

Exactly.  What I do depends on what I have.  If you're buying frames just to do this, the simplest is to buy the wedge top, break out the wedge, turn it 90 degrees and nail it back in.  A little glue wouldn't hurt.  if you already HAVE a grooved frame, anything in the groove that sticks down about 1/4" or so will work great.  If it already has comb in it, I just cut the comb out and leave a row of cells around the outside edge.
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: SlickMick on March 07, 2009, 03:13:11 pm
Do you guys use wire in your frames to help with extraction? Or do  you just wait until the comb is attached on all sides?
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Robo on March 07, 2009, 07:41:22 pm
I wire mine, not only for extraction,  but it makes handling the frames safer as well.   Once the comb encompasses the first wire,  the frame can be handled just like a frame of foundation.   You can wait for them to attach the comb to the sides and bottom,  but sometimes it takes quite a while.
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Cindi on March 07, 2009, 09:47:27 pm
I asked my Husband to make some starter strip frames from the Pierco plastic frames that I have.  It was quite a gruelling job (until he found out how to do it better), but he cut out the plastic foundation, leaving the little strip of plastic along the top.  The bees draw this out well.  I never realized how well it worked until I was cutting out the comb this year.  It is hard to actually tell a frame that has no foundation when I looked at it.  Beautiful day in this great life, great health, love this life.  Cindi

(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9048/starterstrip2640x480.jpg) (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=starterstrip2640x480.jpg)

(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8251/starterstrip640x480.jpg) (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=starterstrip640x480.jpg)
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Shawn on March 08, 2009, 01:03:35 am
So if I took some of the plastic frames I got with the starter kit and cut out the "foundation" area except for a row at the top that would work. I know they are the larger cell and I was trying to get to the small cell size. WOuld the bees just attach to the top or would they start building on the plastic cell that is on the top row? This is only for the eequipment that I have now. All other equipment will be foundationless, I think  :-*
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Robo on March 08, 2009, 08:09:21 am
Shawn,

Size of the cells on the starter strip have no bearing on the size of the cells the bees will build on the new comb.  This is a misconception many people have and they go out and by small cell foundation for their foundationless frame starter strips.  Yes they will draw the first couple cells to match the starter strip, but will then transition to the size they want.   If it were as easy as giving them a cell size and they would just continue with it,  regression would be just one step.  Unfortunately this is not the case.

So yes, go ahead and cut those plastic frames if you want, they will build comb the same as if you gave the small cell starter strips, popsicle sticks, etc...

Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Shawn on March 08, 2009, 07:41:32 pm
OK I think I figured it out. I posted all the drama in the Swarm Removal area and this is what I ended up with. Becuase of all the mess I cut one of the plastic frames out and wired some of their brood comb in.

Here is what I started with:

(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2246/dscf6516.th.jpg) (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf6516.jpg)

After cutting the frame:

(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8374/dscf6517p.th.jpg) (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf6517p.jpg)

(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9003/dscf6518.th.jpg) (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf6518.jpg)

Here is the comb wired to the frame and by no means am I trying to say this is what it should look like:

(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7646/dscf6520.th.jpg) (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf6520.jpg)

(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7374/dscf6521.th.jpg) (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf6521.jpg)

While tying the comb to the frmae I thought I had got off all the bees. WRONG! I put my hand under the comb to help support while lifting it up and I got this instant burning pain in my ring finger. I put the frame down and looked. I saw a little bee lying on her back waving but not with all hands  :-D. It now looks like I have an elephant finger  :'(
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Robo on March 08, 2009, 09:40:33 pm
Looks good. Your a better wire upper than me :)  I would have had those nice pieces of comb all bent and broken by the time I have them wired in.  Nice work....

rob..
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Shawn on March 08, 2009, 09:53:15 pm
Thanks. I still had a lot of stuff from when I was doing Taxidermy  so I used the small guage wire to tie it up. I was going to try to do it better but after I got stung it was hard for me to use my left hand.  :shock:
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Michael Bush on March 08, 2009, 11:09:20 pm
If you read all of the ABC XYZ of Bee Culture the subject of wiring has ALWAYS been how to keep the foundation from sagging until it was drawn.  It has NEVER been that it was needed in order to extract.
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Shawn on March 15, 2009, 08:37:50 pm
Ok here is an updated picture of the frame I wired in the comb from the hive in the chicken coop. This is one week later. They attached everyting at the top and to one side. Once all attached do I remove the wire?

(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/808/dscf6530k.th.jpg) (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf6530k.jpg)

Sorry its not too clear but I was trying to hold and photograph. It does seem they are building the comb out quicker on the foundationless frame VS the plastic frames.

Here is the picture of the frame right beside the foundationless one. It has brood in it but the rest of the frames not as much.

(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8442/dscf6532.th.jpg) (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf6532.jpg)
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: Irwin on March 16, 2009, 09:36:36 am
Looks good to me :)
Title: Re: Foundationless frames
Post by: deknow on March 16, 2009, 01:58:23 pm
it's also worth noting that langstroth's original frames were foundationless.  this is something that most experienced beekeepers don't know (or don't remember)....it's amazing the "forgotten" information that has always been in the abc (xyz) that no one ever seems to have noticed.

the industry did jump on the foundation bandwagon very quickly when it became available...which of course also started to mess with the cell size.

i've ordered myself a couple of old a.i. root books that i've seen at another beekeepers house...the only books i've seen that were published after the invention (and wide adoption) of foundation that gave an anyalisis on situations where foundation helps, and where it holds the bees/the beekeeper back.  to be honest, i was reading this as i was falling asleep one night, and didn't absorb the information, but will share it here when i return home and have a chance to look it over carefully.

deknow