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Author Topic: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid  (Read 8243 times)

Offline DaveG

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Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« on: July 08, 2017, 10:27:53 pm »
Hi

I'm thinking about adding Oxalic Acid with Mineral Oil for use in a Fogger.

I've seen some information about adding Oxalic Acid to Alcohol (Ethanol) and this seems to work fine with a fogger. Ethanol (pure grade) is hard to come by in my part of the world. I've also seen people using Mineral Oil in their fogging machines with some success.

So I was thinking, has anyone used a combination of Oxalic Acid and Mineral Oil in a fogger, and if so, how did you do this and was it successful.

Thanks
Dave in New Zealand
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Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data...

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 11:46:09 am »
If you can't get Everclear at your local liquor store, ask the pharmacist if they can get ethanol or 'grain alcohol'.
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 05:41:24 pm »
Mineral oil will not dissolve oxalic acid.  Oxalic is water soluable.  If you put it in the insect foggers you will have a flame thrower at best and a bomb in your hand at worst.  When I used mineral oil and the fog backed up to the flames on the fogger it exploded and blow the lid off of the hive and singed the bees.  Mineral oil is not nearly as flammable as everclear...
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Offline shawes

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2017, 03:19:56 pm »
If you can't get Everclear at your local liquor store, ask the pharmacist if they can get ethanol or 'grain alcohol'.

Have you had good luck using a fogger instead of a vaporizer? I'm new and have what I need to do either but am more comfortable using the fogger...long time keepers are trying to discourage me from that route.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2017, 05:00:10 pm »
?When I used mineral oil and the fog backed up to the flames on the fogger it exploded and blow the lid off of the hive and singed the bees.?

MB:  did you get burned?  I hope not.  I?ll bet that was a day not soon forgotten.  Thanks for sharing.
Blessings

Offline Jim134

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2017, 05:12:45 pm »
If you can't get Everclear at your local liquor store, ask the pharmacist if they can get ethanol or 'grain alcohol'.

Have you had good luck using a fogger instead of a vaporizer? I'm new and have what I need to do either but am more comfortable using the fogger...long time keepers are trying to discourage me from that route.

     You do realize When   you add another chemical to OA..This is not approved way To be used in the USA... You do realize when you make two chemicals together . You are esentially making a new chemical ..As far  I know there are only 3 approved way ..to Use OA..


                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
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Offline little john

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 06:29:12 pm »
The beauty of Oxalic Acid Vapourisation by electrical heating is that the temperature rises sufficiently slowly enough so that by the time the temperature has risen to around 160-165 degrees C., all of the OA will have sublimated - so there'll be none left to decompose at higher temperatures into formic acid, carbon monoxide/dioxide and water.

But - mixing Oxalic Acid with a volatile organic solvent such as ethanol could possibly cause such decomposition following an ignition of the mix.  I'm not saying that it does - but it could.  That's something that really needs to be established by practical testing.

Better by far to play safe and vapourise OA using an already well-proven technique (imo).
LJ
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Offline Jim134

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2017, 06:31:09 pm »
This is the label you need from the EPA on OA..To be compliant in the USA ..There is also directions on how to Apply OA..Something to remember everything else is off label use ..

https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/091266-00001-20151013.pdf



     BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 11:19:26 am by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 06:31:36 pm »
Jim134, good point, good catch that is.  I never even thought of the ?approved methods.?  Are you an attorney?  Anyway, it is because of beeks like you and so many knowledge others that I appreciate and contribute to this forum.
Blessings

Offline little john

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2017, 06:57:55 pm »
Update.  Here you go ...

Quote
Oxalic Acid
Exposure to elevated temperatures, hot surfaces, or flames causes decomposition and the formation of toxic and flammable formic acid and carbon monoxide.

Wiley Guide to Chemical Incompatibilities, Pohanish and Greene, 2009, p.803.
LJ
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Offline Jim134

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 11:26:09 am »
Update.  Here you go ...

Quote
Oxalic Acid
Exposure to elevated temperatures, hot surfaces, or flames causes decomposition and the formation of toxic and flammable formic acid and carbon monoxide.

Wiley Guide to Chemical Incompatibilities, Pohanish and Greene, 2009, p.803.
LJ

   What this user suggest .Is off label use of Oxalix Acid in the USA ..I have no idea what the procedures are in other countries .. For using chemicals on Their  food ....

               BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline little john

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 06:06:55 am »
Update.  Here you go ...

Quote
Oxalic Acid
Exposure to elevated temperatures, hot surfaces, or flames causes decomposition and the formation of toxic and flammable formic acid and carbon monoxide.

Wiley Guide to Chemical Incompatibilities, Pohanish and Greene, 2009, p.803.
LJ

   What this user suggest .Is off label use of Oxalix Acid in the USA ..I have no idea what the procedures are in other countries .. For using chemicals on Their  food ....

Jim - what are you talking about ?  What 'user' - what 'recommendation' ?

There is no user.  This is a quote from a reference book on Chemical Incompatibilities which gives warnings about unexpected or unintended consequences of chemical reactions - in this case the decomposition products (Formic Acid & Carbon Monoxide) which result from Oxalic Acid Dihydrate being subjected to sudden instantaneous temperatures well above it's sublimation temperature.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with any US legislation concerning the use of Oxalic Acid in the pursuit of beekeeping - unless of course a person is choosing to only focus upon this one particular US issue.  But this is an International Forum, and the OP is based in New Zealand.

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline Jim134

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 11:53:48 am »

   What this user suggest .Is off label use of Oxalix Acid in the USA ..I have no idea what the procedures are in other countries .. For using chemicals on Their  food ....

               BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:


    I do not know which part you do not understand .. I Made a statement about the USA.. That this product cannot be used in the way described ...You need to check your own local Food laws..Where you live or keep bees at ...You do realize OA Cannot be used in every state in the USA
  There  are a few States in the USA where OA .Is not approved to be used as a chemical in a bee hive ?? Own By the way I know nothing about this New Zealand laws ...Do you  ?? 


               BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 01:55:11 pm by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2017, 02:54:53 pm »
>MB:  did you get burned?

Just blew the cover off of the hive and singed the bees badly.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Offline Jim134

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2017, 03:57:54 pm »
     
>MB:  did you get burned?

Just blew the cover off of the hive and singed the bees badly.

   It's your sounds like a good reason to follow approved Procedures and applications ..I would suggest.That you used the directions Found  on the label ..Which you can find our Reply #7 of this thread


            BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 04:08:48 pm by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 05:18:01 pm »
>It's your sounds like a good reason to follow approved Procedures and applications ..

It was just FGMO.  The approved application:

Oral Instructions: For relieving constipation, take mineral oil on an empty stomach at least one hour before or two hours after eating, and at least two hours before bedtime.

I was helping my poor constipated bees... ;) but I wasn't following the directions...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Jim134

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2017, 05:38:50 pm »
I don't believe FGMO..Is  Approved by the EPA .in the USA. Personally I've never seen any directions on it to be used in hives Of honey bees ..In my personal opinion this is off label use ..
You do realize about 7 years ago .Adee Bee farms ..Did get a hefty fine from the EPA .Were using an unimproved chemical Or treatments  in their beehive .The fine was several $1000 ..


            BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 07:17:57 pm »
Adele bee farms had 92,000 bee hives in February 2017.
That is ninety two thousand, 92,000 hives,  not a typo.
Blessings

Offline Jim134

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2017, 10:44:50 pm »
Adee Bee  farm  has been running about 80,000  hives.. For about the Last  20 years or so.


           BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 10:56:59 pm by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Fogging with Mineral Oil and Oxalic Acid
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 09:26:31 am »
>In my personal opinion this is off label use ..

Of an inert chemical.  Powdered sugar isn't labeled for use on Varroa either.  I'm not recommending either...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin