Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => REQUEENING & RAISING NEW QUEENS => Topic started by: nepenthes on January 12, 2007, 06:08:58 pm
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I know some people get new queens every year, and this is to keep swarming down, what do you guys think is it really worth it? I could see how it could work if you have less than 5 hives, but more than that it would just get costly. I know their are some methods of switching up the frames as well.
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>what do you guys think is it really worth it?
I have much better luck keeping the brood nest open and keeping the queens until they fail or they are superceded:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm
Queen longevity:
From "Better Queens" page 18:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Queen%20Alice
"In Indiana we had a queen we named Alice which lived to the ripe old age of eight years and two months and did excellent work in her seventh year. There can be no doubt about the authenticity of this statement. We sold her to John Chapel of Oakland City, Indiana, and she was the only queen in his yard with wings clipped. This, however is a rare exception. At the time I was experimenting with artificial combs with wooden cells in which the queen laid."--Jay Smith
I would point out that Jay says: "This, however is a rare exception."
I think three years has always been pretty typical of the useful life of a queen.
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I don't replace my queens unless I have a health issue or have lost a queen with no replacement.
I know others who replace them every three years.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
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I think there is a significant point that gets forgotten with requeen yearly.
When a hive swarms it has a new establishment year.
The second year is a build up year.
The third year is a new swarm year again.
If you are looking for a hive with good honey production, you are shooting yourself in the foot by replacing the queen before she enters the build up year (the time of hording nectar and thereby producing honey).
I maybe wrong, but this is the natural cycle that I observe.
Jeff
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I have renewed queens every year 80-90%.
One year old queen is a good layer. When queen has second yield summer, it's ability to lay goes dow. Even good queens become ordinary. Sometimes not.
Changing queens every year do not prevent swarming but makes less swarming.
New queens are allways surprise every year what they are.
I have found that if good queen does not swarm in first summer, it does often in second summer.
establishment year, build up year, a new swarm year - I cannot se this in bee nursing. I put swarm it that condition direct after swarming that hive collect normally yield and continues like other hives.
It is quite sure that if you have swarmed queen in hive, you will get one or two swarms next year.
If swarm is small, it is not capable to swarm next year. Poor pastures make that many beekeepers never get swarms. When they have feeded with pollen patty hives, hives become stronger and start to swarm.
Big hives swarm first - that is difficult to accept.
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When requeening to prevent swarming the functional life of an otherwise good queen is terminated for not good reason. the second year is the build up year. But consider--a hive busy building comb will not swarm if they are kept building comb regardless of the age of the queen. Stop providing comb building space and the hive will swarm--regardless of the age of the queen. I'm with MB on this one.
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I have to disagree with Finsky here, I have had one of my queens for comming on 2 years and, she still has the best brood pattern of any of my hives. Her hive is already in it's build-up and, upon last inspection, had a broodnest already spread out to 8 frames, with three of them filled completely top bar to bottom bar and side bar to side bar. I only see it necessary to replace my queens if they show signs of disease, develop a poor brood pattern, or become too deffensive. In most cases, I just let the bees establish their own superceadure queen if it comes to that.
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I have to disagree with Finsky here, I have had one of my queens for comming on 2 years and,
Please do, during my 45 years I have got my own experiences and these are not only mine :lol:
I like to raise new queens and old may go the eternity of queens.
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Of course then there are the commercially produced queens, those seem to need to be replaced more often since they decline quicker because of chemical usage.
(Disclaimer: Rule of thumb, generalities, always plenty of exceptions)
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Of course then there are the commercially produced queens, those seem to need to be replaced more often since they decline quicker because of chemical usage.
That is taken from heaven. Not a bit true. Could you mention some chemicals you know in beekeping now and 15 years ago?
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what about supercedure? i mean, why bother raising a new queen and stuff if bees are well aware when to change the queen? because you would most probably loose one years yield? and aren't superceeded queens the best?
what special methods do you use raising queens? i mean..i'd most probably just take a queen from a nuc/reserve hive or something...
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>>Of course then there are the commercially produced queens, those seem to need to be replaced more often since they decline quicker because of chemical usage.
>That is taken from heaven. Not a bit true.
Actually it's taken from a presentation by Dr. Nancy Ostiguy who teaches Entomology at Penn State.
http://www.ento.psu.edu/Personnel/Faculty/ostiguy.htm
She said she believes the average queen in the US now gets superceded three times a year and that the cause is the build up of fluvalinate and cumaphos in the wax.
This is consistent with reports I'm hearing more and more of failing queens.
> Could you mention some chemicals you know in beekeping now and 15 years ago?
Fluvalinate and cumaphos have been building up in the wax for some time and the amounts continue to increase every year.
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I don't like to be ROBOTICAL with my beekeeping the bees are pretty smart.I got through last year with no swarming four hives I started keeping a open brood nest.I decided I would requeen if the queen failed or was superceded if the queen was bad.
I like what Michael Bush says" everything works if you let it" I think if you re-queened to handle swarming it might not work out.
kirk-o
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what about supercedure? i mean, why bother raising a new queen and stuff if bees are well aware when to change the queen? aren't superceeded queens the best?
Selection is a key word in breeding. If bees keep their own queen, it is not selection by beekeeper. I have left tens of supercedure queens and I have not been satiefied?
why bother [/quote) Yeah! Why bother at all with bees. Just waste of time.
because you would most probably loose one years yield? and
HOw that is possible? I loose the year's yield if swarm escapes. It is only way to loose.
[/quote]what special methods do you use raising queens? i mean..i'd most probably just take a queen from a nuc/reserve hive or something...
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If you notice that hive raise queen cells just change the larva from good hive if you have that one. Supercedure in often so late in my country that there is no time to raise queens in that hive from start. It takes 3 weeks that queen is ready to mate.
My aim is strong selection of queens and I keep selection in my hands. That is what I learned when I studied genetics in university. That is basic of whole bee breeding.
If you keep your queens 2-3 years, it is Ok. Nothing magic in it or in my system.
I have 20 hives and 20 mating nucs. I kill about 50% of new queens in mating nucs when I select best. You se that I select allready among new laying queens . What a waste you say. If you are going to get 200 lbs honey during 3-4 weeks, queens cannot be what ever.
Beekeepers like to do vain works and then avoid very necessary works. It is called hobby. :-D
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finsky, by "the loss of one years yield" i was aiming at the bad queen, if the queen is no good, she will probably get superceeded to late, that's why the loss of a years yield. am i correct?
hehe finsky, nicely said about hobbyest:D so true. but, when you think of it! inventions are made by lazy people, a hardworking man would not invent the wheel, he'd simply carry the load :mrgreen:
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inventions are made by lazy people,
he he, but not in beekeeping. Everything is allready invented in beekeeping, you know. Average yield is not rising. New inventions are unessential.
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inventions are made by lazy people,
he he, but not in beekeping. Everything is allready invented in beekeeping, you know. Average yield is not rising. New inventions are unessential.
If we accepted that we would still be using skreps. :)
Sincerely,
Brendhan
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If we accepted that we would still be using skreps. :)
Top bar is not far from that . In this forum many like 100 years old habits. 8-)
I am considering to by insemination instruments. It would be interesting way to use time. I am 50% retired. I should have time to "control queen matings". Insemination started about 60 years ago. There are many who do not accept it with bees and use unselected queens. I think that it is one mile stone in modern beekeeping.
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hey finsky. i just found out at least one thing remains to be "invented", and that is making suitable habitation for small arachnets to live in the hive. i just read about them (sorry, can't find any stuff in english) and somewhere in the world they call them "friends of the beekeper". they once lived a simbiotic life with bees but since man had put bees in such "well-made" hives, there are no cracks which would be suitable for them to live in. anyway, they are said to be the worst natural enemy of the varoe mites, although some say they can also over-run a hive. they are 4mm in lenght, if anyone wants i can fotographe the photo and post it.
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>suitable habitation for small arachnets to live in the hive
Psuedo scorpions maybe?
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hey finsky. i just found out at least one thing remains to be "invented", and that is making suitable habitation for small arachnets to live in the hive.
Russian beekeepers are masters to find new ideas! Almost macig ways.
Truly, there are many new inventions. One is the worker queen, which was revield 15 years ago. There are no "workerr queen", they are hundreds. However beekeepers tell same "shake far away hive" so worker queen will remain in busches. Idea to research come from wasp behaviour. http://www.lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/aps323/ConflictInBeeHive.pdf
One interesting question is the laying gap in the middle of best yild period. Old idea is that hive has more resources to forage and handla honey. Some summers ago I begun to suspect it that really true because some of my hives went really upset when I took queen away and they stopped foraging, and the hives with queen were best foragers.
I found some reseaches which told that the desire how bees forage, depends on the quality of queen, is it mated, unmated, in cell and so on. No I have gived up killing queens at the beginning of yield season.
This is one old question which natural beekeeprs do not accept: how much combs' drawing need honey.
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm
What I mean is: Beekeeprs are very faithful to their old knowledge. Even if I give a link to new information, people do not read it. They just keep their 50-100 years old information in their heads.
When I started to update my knowledge from internet, I was surprise how bad was my knowledge. But I have seen that others had even worse knowledge. 8-)
Methods to handle mites have changed quite often. It takes about 5-7 years and new methods have found.
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Psuedo scorpions maybe?
No, they are not. They are yellowish and white mites which eat pollen and smaller animals on bottom. They are abundant in soil. Do they really help bees or not, they are just talking.
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i think mr. bush is right pseudoscorpios
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1029/dscf1662js8.th.jpg) (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf1662js8.jpg)
anyway, mr. Bushes trnaslations sounds right
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i think mr. bush is right pseudoscorpios
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1029/dscf1662js8.th.jpg) (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf1662js8.jpg)
anyway, mr. Bushes trnaslations sounds right
I know that he is not. They are not pseudoscorpions.
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I'm not saying that what is being refered to is or is not psuedo scorpions.
Try a search on Google for:
pseudoscorpions beekeeping
You'll get several hundred hits.
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sorry finsky but i think mr. bush is right about them, check for google hits. also i checked both our word as well as pseudoscorpions, both refer to "fake" "not real" scorpios. 100% they are!
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sorry finsky but i think mr. bush is right about them, check for google hits. also i checked both our word as well as pseudoscorpions, both refer to "fake" "not real" scorpios. 100% they are!
I have seen those bugs on bottom and they are not pseudoscorpions in my hives. Of course, in Michaels hives they parhaps are. But Mic, you live in Slovenia and you see up to USA what Mickhaels bugs are?
I sure know what is scorpion. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/371128/arnold_schwarzenegger_the_best_bodybuilder_ever/
But that was new to me. I thought that they live near Africa.
" Europe hosts a surprisingly high diversity of scorpions. At the moment, 25 valid species are reported from Europe (the species known from the Asian part of Turkey are excluded). Scorpions are reported from France, Monaco, Spain, Portugal, Italy, San Marino, Malta, Switzerland, Austria, Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Russia (North Caucasus), Ukraine (Crimea only), and the Balkan countries. In addition, an introduced colony of scorpions in southern England has been known since the 18th. century. Scorpion findings have also been reported from Germany, Holland, Norway, Denmark and Sweden, but no data indicate that these countries host permanent populations (as England does). These scorpions have probably been accidental stowaways."
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hmmm, finsky, i think these pseudoscorpions aren't living in just one region of the world. i think they don't depend on the climate, they depend on bees, so if bees were to live on antarctica, so would these little creatures, inside the hive of course. mr. bush didn't suggest he has them in his hives, he only completed my statement, and so far, he was right. if he has them, i don't know, neither have i said so, but we are certainly talking about them and i have posted a picture of one.
finsky, i hope this doesn't insult you but just maybe you don't know the true meaning of this "pseudo", it means, like i've said before, "not real" "not true", meaning, they only resemble scorpions, look like but aren't.
and you said you've seen them in front of you're hives, probably you're right, since they can't live inside the hive, they decided to live in front, there is surely enough food.
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finsky, i hope this doesn't insult you but just maybe you don't know the true meaning of this "pseudo", it means, like i've said before, "not real" "not true",
I can tell you that I am master in science in biology, and I may se from you writings that you are not specialized in biology.
Pseudo-word is very common in scientific names. It means false. Pseudocarpus, Pseudotzuga,
hmmm, finsky, i think these pseudoscorpions aren't living in just one region of the world. i think they don't depend on the climate, they depend on bees
Now you are talking pseudo science :lol:
I have seen pseudoscorpions in garden compost. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscorpion
Pseudoscorpions seems to everywhere but bees are not. They eat smaller arthropods.
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I've never seen pseudoscorpions in my gardens or beehives. Wonder if they live here too, would be interesting to see them. I am looking at sites to investigate. Thanks all for the cool information and greatest of days. Cindi
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finsky sorry, i withdraw my accusation!
of course i'm no biologist. anyway, i'd like to know what the whole point of your saying is? that pseudoscorpions NEVER live with bees or what? i really don't see your point.
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>They eat smaller arthropods.
Exactly.
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These pseudoscorpions are very tiny little arachnids. I probably wouldn't notice one cause of the size. Anywhere from 1/12 inch to 1/2 inch, teeny tiny. Greatest of days. Cindi
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These pseudoscorpions are very tiny little arachnids. I probably wouldn't notice one cause of the size. Anywhere from 1/12 inch to 1/2 inch, teeny tiny. Greatest of days. Cindi
Soil is full of many kinds of small arachnids. If you put something to eat on soil, it is soon full of life.
It has been wroten that arachnids on bottom board have something usefull to do with bee diseases and acid manipulation kills bugs and so on.
It is fine story but is it true. It is nice to believe it but I do not. Many people think that in nature all have usefull purpose and for human of course. This is quite near to superstition. - What about screened bottom? World end to bees.
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Finsky, what do you mean?
What about screened bottom? World end to bees.
I remember you saying once that you do not use SBB, but have tried them. I cannot find the post. Will you please again of your experience with SBBs. Greatest of days. Cindi
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Finsky, what do you mean?
What about screened bottom? World end to bees.
It is black humour. If beekeepers are that opininion that small bugs are usefull on hive bottom, what happens then when it is screened bottom and no food/rubbish to bugs?
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Hq, you indeed possess the black humour. Guess "keeping" pseudoscorpions would only work with a solid bottomboard, ha, LOL. Greatest of days. Cindi
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Hq, you indeed possess the black humour. Guess "keeping" pseudoscorpions would only work with a solid bottomboard, ha, LOL. Greatest of days. Cindi
Hah hah, at last I succeeded :-D
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I have wondered If bees have hive in tree trunk on in the gap of two walls, I wonder what they have on the bottom of hole and what kind of animals are there? I have never seen natural hive in that circumtancies.
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I believe the idea of open bottom comes from bees that build hives up on over hangs of rocky cliffs where everything falls a hundred feet down from the nest. Then the screen is to keep other critters from getting in.
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Hey on BeeSource.com Charles Simon writes about botomless hives it is worth the read
kirk-o
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OK, bottomless hives, investigation time. Beesource.com. Awesome day. Cindi
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Hey on BeeSource.com Charles Simon writes about botomless hives it is worth the read
kirk-o
Thank you. I keep bottoms in my hives.
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Keep in mind that Charles is in California. Finsky is in Finland. I'll keep bottoms on mine too. :) I don't think Charles has ever seen -40 F with 60 mph winds. I have had bees in that weather on at least two occasions and -20 F with 60 mph gusts on many more.
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mici,like your reply about lazy man.
bob
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mici,like your reply about lazy man.
bob
It depends on what level you are talking :-D
If you look closer at history, inventors have had really hardworking. They are clever but not lazy!
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Finsky, I should forward the Finnish folk song to my sister-in-law law. I have told you that she is Finnish. You said that there may be bad language, but that is OK, I love that stuff. She will decipher the words, word for word for me. She has a tendancy to swear alot and I can bet she will give me all the words to the song (LOL) and we will laugh together. Best of days. Cindi
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People are dansing polka and old mom cannot sleep in another room.
She probably regrets on noice and the answer is in one verse
Direct translations from old finnish song's verse:
To mom I say that shut up your mouth
I will not quarantee you heltness
You will allrigth if you gather you bones
and go to your room and take a sleep
Tenderness shall not bother this boy
when I dance with girls back and fro
Salivilivivilivei
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this song sounded soooooooooooooo familiar to me. and i had a real hard time crackin this case, that's when it hit me! you know those mobile melodies and stuff they enforce...well, there was this "holly-dooly" and she was singing this jibber jabber:) only now i see, it's a finnish song. just type, holly dolly in the youtube.
other than that, i don't pay much attention to those mobile melodies and animations! hate the darn commercials!
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Finsky!! right on!!! Best of days. Cindi
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Someone please tell me how this post when from queens and swarms to folk music and spiders?
Do people on here really lack that much focus?
I don't know, maybe someday you'll search the forums and try to find some information on here yourselves and have to read through 6 pages of unnecessary and off topic fluff and then maybe you'll understand why it's important to start a new thread when you have new topics of thought.
-Jeff
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Jeff, come on. It happens, don't get all cranky about it. I agree with what you are saying, but you have to understand, we are only people and sometimes get caught up a little bit in extra conversation, it just happens, ____ happens, you know that.
Anyways, it is a good reminder to try and keep things a little bit cleaner with regard to posts getting too off topic, this has been brought up a few times on the forum. But remember, it is hard to do.
Oops, this is in the wrong forum, maybe it will get moved to the Chat Room. Anyways, Jeff, it is OK, things will be all right. Best of the best of the days. Cindi
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I found some really good information here; (good stuff) 😊. Therefore I?m bumping this old thread in hope that some of you might benefit from this timeless discussion.
Phillip
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I found some really good information here; (good stuff) 😊. Therefore I'm bumping this old thread in hope that some of you might benefit from this timeless discussion.
Phillip
For we in the Norther Hemisphere, Spring is coming soon and our new bee season will soon be underway!!
Phillip