Drones this late?

[Ben Framed]

In my location we have already had temperatures as low as 18F. In fact it was 28F last night. What puzzles me, is that the day before yesterday I was still seeing drones entering and leaving one of my hives. Is this Par for the course? Why have these drones not already been evicted and dead? This brings another question. We know worker bees die within so many weeks, yet winter workers last for months. Can this same phenomenon happen with drones as well as workers if drones are allowed to stay through the winter? Will these late season drones still be fertile? If these drones are not Evicted and allowed to stay in the hives and live through the winter, can they breed in the spring? Many questions I know.
Thanks,
Phillip

[Nock]

Good question. I would think so.

[Ben Framed]

Good question. I would think so.

Thanks Nock. I do not know how long these drones will live but I realize they have already lived and allowed to stay longer than I had expected. Unless they hatched or emerged in Early November?  Even still should they have not already been evicted? Which leads back to the can of worms questions originally posted.

[Michael Bush]

My bees keep a few drones all year around.  They get rid of most of them once there is a fall freeze.

[Ben Framed]

My bees keep a few drones all year around.  They get rid of most of them once there is a fall freeze.

I had noticed some being evicted  a week or so ago and was surprised to see some still there and active two days ago.

[Ben Framed]

My bees keep a few drones all year around.  They get rid of most of them once there is a fall freeze.

I had noticed some being evicted  a week or so ago and was surprised to see some still there and active two days ago.

I also noticed that some of the drones were very light colored and some were dark. I suppose that early queens will have a better chance to be mated with the assurance of older drones still around this spring.
Thanks Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Where I erred, I was under the impression drones would be missing from hives through the winter months. As most information that I had studied had pointed to those conclusions.  It?s  Fun learning!
Thanks,
Phillip

[Michael Bush]

With commercial Italian bees i never saw any drones over winter.  With feral survivor stock I do.

[van from Arkansas]

Good morning Mr. BenFramed.

I have seen hives over winter drones.  Kind of a rare event, it happens contrary to the norm.

The question regarding breeding quality of the overwintered drone.  I have not seen any research that addresses this question.  I will provide a summary of research I have studied regarding breeding viability of drones.

Viability of drone spermozoa is reduced by summer heat when a hive is subject to extreme temps from direct sunlight.  Temperature studies suggest that all semon is sensitive to heat, mammals to insects.  A drone in a hot summer hive is still of breeding quality but not as full prime as a drone not exposed to heat extremes.

The spermatheca, holding sperm sack, of a queen actually provides nutrients to maintain viability of the stored spermatozoa thus lasting the queen for years. [I just read this recently] Thus most semon can cryogenically be maintained at -80F for ,,,, well,,, the time is unknown.  Honey bee spermatozoa require special conditions for cryo that were recently discovered allowing cryo storage.  Dr. Colby, bee geneticists, ships semon via the mail, very successfully I might add.  In summation, heat is a factor affecting the breeding quality of a drone.  So, an overwintered drone, although not specifically studied, the data suggest the drones should be of quality the following Spring.
Blessings
Van

[Ben Framed]

Awesome! Thanks Mr Van

[The15thMember]

Could seeing drones in the winter be an indication of a failing queen?  I've heard that sometimes hives will maintain a small patch of brood through the winter, and I'm just wondering if seeing drones could be an indication that the queen is laying only unfertilized eggs. 

[Ben Framed]

With commercial Italian bees i never saw any drones over winter.  With feral survivor stock I do.

I can not say which these are Mr Bush, I did do some cutouts when I started 20 months ago. Which I believe to be from freal survivor stock as the homeowner knew of no beekeeper in her rural area. I also ordered some queens for Barnyard bees that were lite in color. Making late fall splits that first fall.  Feral bees were darker colored and both type bees were very gentle as far a bees are concerned.
Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Could seeing drones in the winter be an indication of a failing queen?  I've heard that sometimes hives will maintain a small patch of brood through the winter, and I'm just wondering if seeing drones could be an indication that the queen is laying only unfertilized eggs.

Points I had not considered Member, seems viable points to me. But I certainly hope not!
  
I am counting of these queens to make it through the winter as I am anxious to split, split, split.
 
Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Mr Van being the winter weather is cold in our area, the drones may very well come through the winter potent breeders! Thanks for the good information! Thanks to each of you.
Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Nock, this puts you right on target.

[Michael Bush]

>Could seeing drones in the winter be an indication of a failing queen?

Actually it could be, but not because the queen is laying just drone eggs, but because drones are attracted to colonies that are queenless or have failing queens and queenless hives seldom throw out drones.  But I see them in queenright overwintering colonies.

[van from Arkansas]

Member, good question.  Answer, well, yes, drones could be a sign of a failed queen.

However, I assure you, I have seen overwintered drones in a hive with a healthy itialian queen, a queen I raised and recognized. This is a rare event and I don?t have an explanation.  The drones were colored typical as the hive they were in.  I have no way of knowing which queen the drones were from.  Bees don?t always go by the book is all I can add.  I could give examples, texting pages of examples of honey bee surprise behavior I have witnessed.

There is an old saying that I have used myself: THE BEES KNOW BEST.  Actually, this is not correct as I have seen bees generate a queen from 2nd instar larva*when 1st instar larva was available.  *Instar, stages of larva that have shed their skin.

Blessings

I will add, the size of a queens ovaries are directly proportional to the age of the larva selected for rearing.  First instar, max 24 hours are critical for producing a quality queen.  2nd instar and older larva generate queens that are inferior; poor layers, small queens, queens that fail.

[Ben Framed]

Could seeing drones in the winter be an indication of a failing queen?  I've heard that sometimes hives will maintain a small patch of brood through the winter, and I'm just wondering if seeing drones could be an indication that the queen is laying only unfertilized eggs.

Points I had not considered Member, seems viable points to me. But I certainly hope not!
  
I am counting of these queens to make it through the winter as I am anxious to split, split, split.
 
Phillip

Member has sparked some more questions from me. If the queens of hives described above are failing, can the bees; do the bees, attempt to raise a new queen in the colder months in my area?  I know this question may seem way out there but I think it is a good question, maybe a question that has been overlooked throughout beekeeping because the possibilities are off of the beaten path,(wayyyy off the beaten path), The drones fly, why could not a virgin do the same? I believe she could, but could they successfully mate, say if the temperature could reach 70 or above or for that matter even lower, much lower, on those rare warmer days when bees do fly? What are your thought Mr Van? Mr Bush? Member? Nock? anyone else? Perhaps some of you may have facts concerning these questions?
Thanks everyone,
Phillip Hall


,

[van from Arkansas]

Phil, a hive must have young nurse bees to raise a queen. An overwintered hive has no young nurse bees.  Only nurse bees can produce Royal jelly and in time the gland that produce Royal jelly degenerates and the nurse bees seek other duties.

Last year, I had a hive overwinter that was queenless come spring.  So I added a frame of capped brood.  After the brood hatched and the hive now had nurse bees, I provided eggs.  A queen was made, mated and the hive is present to this day.  The key point is I had to first make nurse bees.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Phil, a hive must have young nurse bees to raise a queen. An overwintered hive has no young nurse bees.  Only nurse bees can produce Royal jelly and in time the gland that produce Royal jelly degenerates and the nurse bees seek other duties.

Last year, I had a hive overwinter that was queenless come spring.  So I added a frame of capped brood.  After the brood hatched and the hive now had nurse bees, I provided eggs.  A queen was made, mated and the hive is present to this day.  The key point is I had to first make nurse bees.
Blessings

Very good point Mr Van. I did consider this about nurse bees, as I understand it bees will continue to raise a small amount of bees throughout the winter months. I am thinking theoratolicy, that there may be just enough nurse bees to get the job done?  I should have added, that I am feeding open pollen on the days that are over 43 degrees and the bees are all over it. This may be another reason that the drones have bees spared the boot in the numbers that I have?
Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Friends, my mind has been running  a mile a minute ever since I have ask these  theoretical questions. If these theories are true or possible, I have come to realize even more mysteries that may now have been answered to questions that I have had but could not find the answer to. I am not in a position to share these with you now, I will soon be driving, but I will share them with you later possibly tonight.
Thanks friends,
Phillip

[Nock]

If there are no nurse bees through the winter then who takes care of larva once she starts back laying in the spring?

[van from Arkansas]

Nock, another good question.  Winter bees can feed honey, bee bread to generate drones or worker larva.  Only the queen requires the special diet of Royal jelly which as you know is generated by the glands from the jaw of the nurse bees.  Worker bees or queens bees are created by diet.  The eggs of the worker/queen bee is exactly the same.  The food stimulates the difference.  When I create queens, I graft larva that were intended to be worker bees.

So, give me a fertile bee larva less than 24 hours old and with selected food I can make either a queen or nurse/worker bee.  I hope I answered your question.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

If there are no nurse bees through the winter then who takes care of larva once she starts back laying in the spring?

This is uncharted ground and I do not want to hurt anyone's feelings, nor do I wish to come across as argumentative. Here is my theory for what it is worth. I mean no disrespect to anyone. The first job of worker bees when hatched or emerged if you will,  are to become nurse bees, bees do raise more bees throughout the winter as I have studied. Not many but some in my area which should be about the same as your area. I am just south of Memphis. Therefore they may be capable of providing a new supply of nurse bees?  Not many but just what is needed for developing queens. This is a subject that I have not seen ANY writings on nor talk on youtube or anywhere else for the possibility of raising queens in our area in winter even if only in an emergency situation. If what I theorize is true, then I have little doubt that bees should be capable of raising virgins in my area in winter. I just do not know if they will and if so, if they can successfully mate. Just my theory and thoughts for what it is worth and it may not be worth the paper that it could be written on?
Phillip

[Nock]

Nock, another good question.  Winter bees can feed honey, bee bread to generate drones or worker larva.  Only the queen requires the special diet of Royal jelly which as you know is generated by the glands from the jaw of the nurse bees.  Worker bees or queens bees are created by diet.  The eggs of the worker/queen bee is exactly the same.  The food stimulates the difference.  When I create queens, I graft larva that were intended to be worker bees.

So, give me a fertile bee larva less than 24 hours old and with selected food I can make either a queen or nurse/worker bee.  I hope I answered your question.
Blessings

I was thinking even workers got RJ for so long starting out before being pulled off.

[van from Arkansas]

Interesting Phil, your always thinking!!  Food for thought:

I could easily raise queens in February.  However, I look for the drones which take about 3 weeks+ to hatch and another 2 weeks to mature.  That is well over a month.  So for me, queen rearing is based on my drones.

My queens begin to lay bees in January, not much, but I always figure January is beginning brood month.  So I always treat for mites in December as January is to late, If we have a chinook in January with a warm night AND a warm day you can open a hive and see for yourself if there is a patch of brood.

January laying is geographically dependent, weather dependent and species dependent.  A chinook will tell you, when and if we have one.  This is what I plan on: January brood in my area, N. Arkansas but is by no means a for certain.  As most years I cannot check.
Blessings
Van

Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Interesting Phil, your always thinking!!  Food for thought:

I could easily raise queens in February.  However, I look for the drones which take about 3 weeks+ to hatch and another 2 weeks to mature.  That is well over a month.  So for me, queen rearing is based on my drones.

My queens begin to lay bees in January, not much, but I always figure January is beginning brood month.  So I always treat for mites in December as January is to late, If we have a chinook in January with a warm night AND a warm day you can open a hive and see for yourself if there is a patch of brood.

January laying is geographically dependent, weather dependent and species dependent.  A chinook will tell you, when and if we have one.  This is what I plan on: January brood in my area, N. Arkansas but is by no means a for certain.  As most years I cannot check.
Blessings
Van

Blessings

Thanks Mr Van,  these questions are just spinoffs from Members thoughts on drones. And that has put me to thinking for sure! haa haa. I will take you advice and see if there is a patch of brood when the warm days present the opportunity.
I have more thoughts and theories about these spinoffs. I am still chewing on those thoughts. 

In your situation you definitely have to have the drones to do your AI-II.  Mites in your drone comb in January is definitely not good and a potential set back. Good plan Mr Van.

[van from Arkansas]

My mite count starts to skyrocket in July.  Or stated another way.  My mite count goes from an algebraic scale to a logarithmic scale in July.
Blessings

[van from Arkansas]

If there are no nurse bees through the winter then who takes care of larva once she starts back laying in the spring?

https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-10-645/figures/5

https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-10-645#Fig2

Nock ask the above question to which I have been researching.  My finding in part to above linked article.  This article is insanely complex, see link of proteins produced by hypopharynx, the gland that produces RJ; crazy detailed graph; so here is the short version.

Nurse bees can produce Royal jelly, RJ, upon hatching but peak production at 6 days to 18 days.  The hyopharynx gland decreases in production of RJ and converts to production of honey related digestive components after day 18, suggesting production of RJ after day 18 is minimal due to changes or maturity of the gland.
Cheers
Van

[Ben Framed]

If there are no nurse bees through the winter then who takes care of larva once she starts back laying in the spring?

https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-10-645/figures/5

https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-10-645#Fig2

Nock ask the above question to which I have been researching.  My finding in part to above linked article.  This article is insanely complex, see link of proteins produced by hypopharynx, the gland that produces RJ; crazy detailed graph; so here is the short version.

Nurse bees can produce Royal jelly, RJ, upon hatching but peak production at 6 days to 18 days.  The hyopharynx gland decreases in production of RJ and converts to production of honey related digestive components after day 18, suggesting production of RJ after day 18 is minimal due to changes or maturity of the gland.

Cheers
Van

Great information Mr Van. Thank you for your research on this subject. That could mean in my, (our area),  the chance of enough nurse bees needed n the dead of winter would be questionable at the least, to have the hypothetical ability to produce a queen. Is this right Mr Van? This is the way I am understanding it.
Phillip

[van from Arkansas]

Ben, it?s looks doubtful to produce Royal jelly by bees older than 18 days. The insert is the basic proteins of Royal jelly and a few misc proteins produced by nurse bees.  133 proteins, I had no idea Royal jelly was so complex.  Now we see how Royal jelly produces a queen so fast,,,, look at all the various proteins the queen is fed.
Each little red and blue dot is a different protein.  The lines show which proteins combine with or produces another protein.


Blessings

[Oldbeavo]

I know I am coming in late in this topic, but as we don't have snow but our night time temp may go minus a cold winters day would be about 10 C.
When we audit our bees in July, mid winter, if we find a few drones to us it is a good sign that the hive is wintering perfectly, they have enough stores and there may be a little patch of brood.
If we could get all our hives in that good condition in Autumn that a few drones overwintered then they would be in really good shape for the next season.
At almonds bees come from more warmer areas and these hive have drones, but after 4 weeks pollinating our hives will also have drone that have migrated in. In early September our drones at the best are larvae with purple eyes, but there are plenty of mixed coloured drones in the hives. Genetic diversity or potential problems I am insure.
I know one group of bees have a very bad attitude at present and are darker than normal, which we are blaming on the migratory drones.s

[van from Arkansas]

Mr. Beavo:  Similar on this side of the globe, different dates though.  In February over 1 million hives will be transported to California for almond pollination.  A concentration of so many hive in such a small area, from all over the USA presents issues with disease,  1. primary concern and 2. drone migration a lesser concern.

I read your post to BenFramed about the absence of Varroa down under.  Very good for you.  I hope Australia stays mite free.

Cheers

[Ben Framed]

Ben, it?s looks doubtful to produce Royal jelly by bees older than 18 days. The insert is the basic proteins of Royal jelly and a few misc proteins produced by nurse bees.  133 proteins, I had no idea Royal jelly was so complex.  Now we see how Royal jelly produces a queen so fast,,,, look at all the various proteins the queen is fed.
Each little red and blue dot is a different protein.  The lines show which proteins combine with or produces another protein.


Blessings

Wow, very complex indeed. And royal jelly is made from honey and bee bread (basically pollen). I also note that the vitamins and minerals along with antioxidants are not shown. Amazing complex food is pollen. No wonder so many advocates of the benefits of eating bee pollen are so persuasive. Thanks for posting this Mr Van. I fully intend to add pollen traps this coming season with enough traps to gather pollen for my family.
Blessings,
Phillip

[Ben Framed]

I have heard and read that we should not open hives in the cold of winter, but this off season when the days are warmer I intend to do some brood monitoring. I would like to see first hand what it up. Quick in and outs.
.