Author Topic: Oh Crap! Overcrowded bees. Fast answers needed. (Read 11585 times)

Understudy · « **on:** April 04, 2006, 10:33:47 pm »

You know I can't go anywhere.
I had 10 days in Chicago to work on a project. I ask my wife to keep an eye on the hives. I knew it was close to getting ready to swarm. However I was hoping I could wait because I had to go to Chicago and in the moring I have to go to Tallahassee and then Miami and then Sarasota. So outside of tonight I am pretty much screwed until this weekend.
Well I got home a little after 8 pm and I go and my nuc has bees busting at the seams, literally. The entrance to the hive is so packed I can't believe it.
So at 8:30 pm I am going in and taking a peek in the hive.
darn, it is crowded in there. Every frame is covered with bees.

I have ordered some medium frames and a couple of medium boxes. However that won't arrive until after the weekend. I have a deep box and deep frames. I could use those if I have to.

So here is my question:
Do I move my bees tonight into a deep or do I wait until the weekend?

Nothing like a late night issue to bring one home again. I thing the honey-do list is looking better, because I can always put off the items that are on it.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Robo · « **Reply #1 on:** April 04, 2006, 10:45:39 pm »

Did you see any queen cells? Was there any fresh eggs? They won't swarm until they have established some queen cells. The queen will also stop laying and slim down in preparation for flight.

If it were me, I would give them the extra deep for space and hope to prevent them from getting the swarm impulse. Once they have the impulse, it is harder to stop them.

Understudy · « **Reply #2 on:** April 04, 2006, 10:59:51 pm »

There were queen cells forming when I left I doubt they have had a chance to do a mating flight. The nuc box they are in is full. So should I move them tonight to the deep with some extra frames or wait till the weekend?

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Robo · « **Reply #3 on:** April 04, 2006, 11:04:57 pm »

I missed the part about it being a nuc, sorry. You should be OK till the weekend.

Understudy · « **Reply #4 on:** April 04, 2006, 11:08:42 pm »

Thanks Robo, I will now breath.

I have to admit it is a lot of friggen bees.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Finsky · « **Reply #5 on:** April 05, 2006, 01:04:52 am »

If your nuc has medium size frames, put the nuc box over the deep. Arrange inner cover and water cover. Let bees enlarge downwards into deep.

Joseph Clemens · « **Reply #6 on:** April 05, 2006, 02:42:07 am »

You might want to stop feeding them. In the image you posted there is an entrance feeder shown. If they are strong and have already built up as you describe. Too much artificial honey-flow can be an insentive for them to believe its time to swarm.

You indicate you are in Florida. My understanding is that there is almost always some sources of nectar and pollen. Even here in Tucson, Arizona where we've had an extremely dry 8 months or more I haven't had to feed, the bees were always busy bringing in pollen and nectar all winter long - despite intermittent frosts, but very little rain.

Finsky · « **Reply #7 on:** April 05, 2006, 03:20:12 am »

Quote from: Joseph Clemens

You indicate you are in Florida. My understanding is that there is almost always some sources of nectar and pollen.

That is true. If bees have good nectar source they fill small hive during one week. Feeding sugar is bad thing. Hive needs all cells for brood.

Understudy · « **Reply #8 on:** April 05, 2006, 06:32:59 am »

The feeder jar was there from before I left for Chicago. I never took it out to make it work like an entrance reducer on the nuc. I had put the feeder jar specfically to increase the numbers because they were low. The frames in the nuc are deeps I had hoped to eventually move the bees to a hive composed of mediums.

I also took a look at my second hive it also is packed with bees. I am going to have to add a body and some frames to that, they are not quite at the stage where my nuc is, population wise.

Okay I am off to work. Thanks for all the help, keep posting I will read them when I get home tonight which will be about 2 am(GMT -4,DST). :shock:

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Jack Parr · « **Reply #9 on:** April 05, 2006, 07:54:59 am »

Brendhan, did you actually pull up each frame to see if in fact the bees had built the wax cells ?

If so, what is in the cells? Empty, filled with nectar, filled with pollen? filled with capped brood ? eggs ? larva ?

Bees run around the frames/foundation seemingly doing nothing at times.
A nuc can actually hold a large amount of bees and be OK.

And speaking of a box full-o- bees, wait until you have a stack of two deeps and maybe two, three, or more honey super boxes stacked for being impressed with " boxes full-o-bees :!:

What do your Bee acquaintances around you say about swarming ?
Is there no particular season for swarming ? Could it be anytime ? What are the conditions the Florida beekeepers must be aware of? Etc etc. Those are the questions that you should have answered about your particular area IMO.

Finsky · « **Reply #10 on:** April 05, 2006, 08:04:23 am »

Forecast

http://www.wunderground.com/US/FL/West_Palm_Beach.html

It seems that temperature is not so warm in Palm Beach.

Apis629 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 05, 2006, 04:09:59 pm »

Actually, up here a flow is just ending and I had one colony swarm in the middle of it. Maybe that's what's going on over in West Palm Beach. It's close enough that I'd immagine alot of the blooming conditions being simmilar.

Finsky · « **Reply #12 on:** April 06, 2006, 01:51:45 am »

Like Jack says, it is better look inside what is going there.
If you have honey flow, probably hive is full honey and syrup feeding.
It is imposible to nurse bees if you do not follow what is inside.

Understudy · « **Reply #13 on:** April 06, 2006, 08:41:59 am »

Hi quick couple of notes before I run to work,
When I got home the other night and looked at the hive. I could not see the cells very well but it was dark. What I could see was so many bees that they were piled on top of one another and bursting out the entrance.
The box was so full I had to get the bees flying so I could put the frame back in. I didn't want to keep it open for long because it was night and I didn't need to deal with a bunch of mad bees at night.

My neighbors don't need a swarm. My neighbors are sorta ok with my bees.
I am not going to change this to sorta bad because a swarm has gone visiting.

The temps are going be up in the 80F/27C or higher so I would definitly say the weather is going to be good.

I will try to keep the pics I have in the first post up, but I have to tweak out the load balancing which is something that takes time. Unfortunatly I don't have that.

I am off to work. I will read your replies late tonight.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Finsky · « **Reply #14 on:** April 06, 2006, 08:51:00 am »

Give them another box, gooood heavensssss :shock:.

When you next night go to home, lift another box on it. Ask your secretary to buy this forehead lamp

Understudy · « **Reply #15 on:** April 06, 2006, 01:07:52 pm »

Sneaking on to the computer here at the cafe for lunch.

I do plan on giving them a box. I was going to move them out of the nuc. I was just hoping I could do it during the day on Saturday.

I could move them at night if I had to but that was the orginal question was do I have time to wait because my frames are suppose to arrive tomorrow for my medium. Otherwise I have to put them in a deep.

So hopefully they won't vacate the hive in 48 hours.

I have a lamp, don't have a secretary, can you send me a cute one?

This is going to be interesting isn't it?

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Finsky · « **Reply #16 on:** April 06, 2006, 02:01:08 pm »

Quote from: Understudy

... don't have a secretary, can you send me a cute one?

USA has blaimed Finland that we do not stop human trade through country. Just now it is difficult to serve you. Sorry.

Jack Parr · « **Reply #17 on:** April 07, 2006, 07:21:32 am »

Quote from: Finsky

Quote from: Understudy
... don't have a secretary, can you send me a cute one?

USA has blaimed Finland that we do not stop human trade through country. Just now it is difficult to serve you. Sorry.

Interesting. Could you refer me to an article or some press exposure on the subject.

Is it about ALL those Russian girls wanting to leave their country to come here to the US? and find some RICH Americans :?:
:lol:

Finsky · « **Reply #18 on:** April 07, 2006, 08:18:02 am »

Quote from: Jack Parr

Interesting. Could you refer me to an article or some press exposure on the subject.

Here if you manage with Finnish
http://iportti.net/WebX?50@782.XVlhadflnfD.0@.4b46df45

Jack Parr · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2006, 07:31:35 am »

Quote from: Finsky

Quote from: Jack Parr

Interesting. Could you refer me to an article or some press exposure on the subject.

Here if you manage with Finnish
http://iportti.net/WebX?50@782.XVlhadflnfD.0@.4b46df45

Well Finsky, it seems that my system/computer knows that I am not very good at Finnish, and your site will not come up :!:

Soooo I'll just have to take your word for it :?: Actually I have seen pics of some of those " WALKING and TALKING Queens, supposedly from Mother Russia and they are not toooo bad. Really. If I weren't already hooked up to a good cook I might be interested myself, but...

Actually some of those " mail order bride " situations, from different countries, often turn out badly for the women/girls who get involved.

And speaking about Russians, actual queen BEES, I have just had a surprise by my Russian Queened colony that was my prize producer. It seems like the Queen has disappeared or something happened. I asked a couple of beeks what the problem could be since about 1 month and 1/2 ago that hive was building up, it seems rapidly, but last week, there is some spotty brood left and no eggs or larve. There is suppose to be some unpridictable preformance with the Russians concerning brood build up???
In any event, today, I have some new queens and I am going into that hive and install an Italian Mama to rectify the situation. In fact I just yesterday acquired four Italian SMR Mamas to replace queens in four boxes. We'll see how that goes.

Those Russian Queens are supposed to be more Verroa Mite tolerent but now I am finding out, from the beek who sold them to me, THAT he also not too enchanted with the Russians, although he IS in the Russian Queen program being promoted by the Louisiana State University and US Department of Agriculture here in Louisiana.

Understudy · « **Reply #20 on:** April 10, 2006, 08:38:23 am »

Well the bees got moved this weekend. They are now in a deep box with ten frames. I scraped the swarm cells off the bottom of the frames and placed them in the new box. The move went well. The bees are flying back and forth loaded with pollen. I have put an entrance reducer in. The only oddball thing is that at night the bees block up the entrance and hang out at the entrance. I am guessing they may still have a swarm mentality and they may need time to adjust to the new home.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Finsky · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2006, 09:14:12 am »

Quote from: Understudy

The only oddball thing is that at night the bees block up the entrance and hang out at the entrance.

It seems that hive is still crowded. May be thay continue their hanging couple of days. Put under brood box another box.

If they make new queen cells, move hive 10 feets away and put nex box in old site. Then give there larva frame pollen and food, and the rest foundations. When they have drawn almost all foundations they will not sawrm. Then put together those hive halves.

Understudy · « **Reply #22 on:** April 10, 2006, 10:07:40 am »

Do you mean the bees think they are still in an overcrowded situation?
Because the bees have five new fresh frames for them to expand on.
Maybe they got into the swarm mentality already and I should split the hive by moving one part 10 feet away and then bringing it back?
The queen cells may have already hatched I will check later today it is pouring rain right now.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Finsky · « **Reply #23 on:** April 10, 2006, 11:04:39 am »

Quote from: Understudy

The queen cells may have already hatched I will check later today it is pouring rain right now.

If you have yet capped queen cells they surely will swarm if you not interrupt them. If they are not going to swarm, they destroy queen cells and bite a hole through cell's side wall.

If they are going to swarm and if they have ready queen inside cells, queen just make a little door and stay in cell. When good day comes, they rush out with swarm. It is opportunity to get several good queens in this way and make nucs.

If you really have that situation that they are going to swarm, do that moving trick. Otherwise they keep they mind and run away with virgin queen. If you see old queen, give it to foundation hive so it continues egg laying.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #24 on:** April 10, 2006, 09:57:48 pm »

Sounds like they are in need of ventilation as well as the room issue. Prop the top open a bit. Or put some shims under the inner cover. Or popscicle sticks. Or, if you have a SBB, take out the tray.

Understudy · « **Reply #25 on:** April 10, 2006, 11:49:19 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bush

Sounds like they are in need of ventilation as well as the room issue. Prop the top open a bit. Or put some shims under the inner cover. Or popscicle sticks. Or, if you have a SBB, take out the tray.

The room issue bogles my mind. The bees now have 5 clean frames. The ventalation issue I could work with. I can take off the telescoping cover and leave the inner cover with the small hole in the top.

I could remove the entrance reducer?

The is not a SBB. I need to get one for it.

There are no queens other than the main one. That I can see, that is not saying much. I am awful at finding the normal queen. I have seen what I am guessing are some drone cells they are not big like queen cells. They look more like pimples on brood frame.

Okay, enough for now, need sleep.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Finsky · « **Reply #26 on:** April 11, 2006, 02:50:29 am »

You forecast does not tell hot weather ?
http://www.wunderground.com/US/FL/West_Palm_Beach.html

You say that there is rain and bees hang outside. So they do if hive is too full of bees of full of honey. And it takes some days before they return to work.

Now you have place to learn and clear out what is the situation in the hive. To make a gap in inner cover is not wise at all.

* It hive is too hot, they have ventilating bees tens or hundreds outside of entrance.
* if it is too hot, you see it from thermometer . 32C = brood area temperature. They must get water to cool hive.
* It they got too heavy nectar flow that is reason why they cannot work and come out to hang on walls - you see when you look inside

* if it it too hot or too heavy nectar flow, keep entrance widely open. Look ventilators....

* If hive is too hot, and when you look inside, bees like to stay near walls and there is "hole" in the centre of bee mass.

* If bees are going to swarm, they do not draw foundations.

Understudy · « **Reply #27 on:** April 11, 2006, 04:57:42 pm »

They are definitly drawing foundation. One of the new frames is already showing signs of new wax cell. It look a little weird in some areas where it is clumped. But the rest of it looks like it is starting to come along normally.

There is not a heat issue based on the bee formation. The entrance is completly sealed at night with the clump of bees.

During the days the entrance is pretty crowded but it is bees flying back and forth just at night they cluster up. am going to pull the entrance reducer.

There is plenty of water for them to cool the hive. Also the night tempratures have been in the low 70F/21C.

They are not hanging out on the walls of the box, they are hanging out on the frames. Which are loaded with capped cells. I expect the population to double again within a week the way things are going.

I am assuming that the hive is to full of bees and brood, there is some honey but not as much, and they haven't had a chance to build new foundation fast enough to keep up. That may be why they are hanging out.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Finsky · « **Reply #28 on:** April 11, 2006, 05:12:00 pm »

You could do a trick and give to them give a new box under the brood box. They may use that new room as they like. When new bees emerge you need not to be so exact when you give new room.

If bees are crowded and that is why they are lazy, it takes some days that they learn to work again. If they prepared to swarm that is another reason why so just hang and wait for better life.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #29 on:** April 11, 2006, 06:39:40 pm »

>The room issue bogles my mind. The bees now have 5 clean frames.

Five empty frames in a hive is not much room.

>The ventalation issue I could work with. I can take off the telescoping cover and leave the inner cover with the small hole in the top.

You don't want an open hole on top. Just put a stick between the inner and outer to make some air space and allow some air out the top.

I've seen many hives with enough room with a beard of bees on the front. Opening up the SBB and propping the cover has never failed to clear up the beard in these situations.

>I could remove the entrance reducer?

If you have a solid bottom board, a reduced entrance, no top vent, warm weather and a booming hive, of course they are bearded. Yes, remove the entrance reducer. Provide some way for the air to get in the bottom and out the top.

>The is not a SBB. I need to get one for it.

You can get by without the SBB, but the air needs someway to get in the bottom (and out the top) and it can't get in the bottom with a solid bottom AND an entrance reducer.

Understudy · « **Reply #30 on:** April 12, 2006, 01:13:29 am »

Okay, I may have learned something here. Probably wrong but it is something.

I pulled the entrance reducer at dusk as the bees were finished with their collecting flights. A digital thermometer which wasn't easier to use did not indicated any overheating issues. The highest temp I could find was 85F/29C but I am not willing to say how accurate that is because getting the temp was a pain in the butt.

My guess is this. The bees do not have enough drawn frames to hang out on. Here is what I mean. This is now a 10 frame deep. 5 frames were moved from the nuc. 4 of which were brood and one of which was honey. The 5 frames in the deep are just foundation frames with no drawn comb on them yet.

So the bees at night are hanging at the bottom of the five drawn frames where it is warm. The bees don't want to hang out on cold plastic foundation frames. Now don't get wrong there are bees working on the frames starting to draw out comb, but until that happens, the bees want to hang with the group. The entrance reducer has been pulled and that has seemed to have a little effect if that the entrance is not completly blocked with bees. They are definitly hanging with the crowd.

I suspect (guess) once the comb is drawn on one or two of the new frames and there is room for the bees the entrance won't be so crowded.

I am just hoping the population explosion doesn't force something else. Those brood frames are loaded with eggs and larvae.

Sincerely,
Brendhan