Undersupering

[2Sox]

Curious what experience you all have with this.  Warre is all about this and I wonder - aside from the weight issue - why we don?t do more of this.

[Kathyp]

The natural order of the hive is that the brood area is built downward and the honey area is above.  I never understood undersupering because that's not the way bees do it.

There is some confusion about terms sometimes.  The honey super is not the same as the new brood box that you add.  I do put the new brood box under for several reasons, not the least of which is that it keeps the bees from blocking the new box with whatever honey they may have already stored in the old one.  Honey supers go on top.  No excluders for me. 

As clear as mud?   

[Michael Bush]

>Curious what experience you all have with this.  Warre is all about this and I wonder - aside from the weight issue - why we don?t do more of this.

Actually Warre is big on Nadiring.  Nadiring is putting the empty boxes at the bottom of the hive, BELOW the brood nest.  Undersupering is putting the new empty super ABOVE the brood nest but below the full supers.  I have two reasons for doing neither.  One is weight.  The other is, how do you know to add more boxes without digging all the way down to the brood nest?  I want the empty space on top for my convenience.  It doesn't seem to make that much difference to the bees.  I'm sure undersupering has a slight advantage, but hardly measurable and not enough for to be worth the extra work.

[Terri Yaki]

The natural order of the hive is that the brood area is built downward and the honey area is above.  I never understood undersupering because that's not the way bees do it.

There is some confusion about terms sometimes.  The honey super is not the same as the new brood box that you add.  I do put the new brood box under for several reasons, not the least of which is that it keeps the bees from blocking the new box with whatever honey they may have already stored in the old one.  Honey supers go on top.  No excluders for me. 

As clear as mud?   

When I was over at my mentor's apiary, he took empty boxes off the bottom and put them on top of his brood boxes. His bees weren't building down, they were building up and he said that they didn't see those empty bottom boxes as open space. I was also under the impression that I should put an empty deep on top of the medium that my nuc will be living in and that they would move up into it because, "bees do what bees do".

[Michael Bush]

In a tree bees can only work down.  They hang from the top and build comb down.  When the beekeeper keeps adding empty boxes on top, the bees want to store honey over the brood nest, so they go up there and fill it with honey.  If there weren't empty boxes on top they would build the brood nest back down.  Again, though, the easier place for the beekeeper to have the space is on top so they don't have to look at the bottom box.  So it works better for the beekeeper to put the empty box above the full box.

[Ben Framed]

Good point!

[The15thMember]

Good to see you around, 2Sox. 

Actually Warre is big on Nadiring.  Nadiring is putting the empty boxes at the bottom of the hive, BELOW the brood nest.  Undersupering is putting the new empty super ABOVE the brood nest but below the full supers.

Thanks for clarifying this.  I have been wondering if the two terms were the same.

The other is, how do you know to add more boxes without digging all the way down to the brood nest? 

This is the biggest reason I don't do it either.

When I was over at my mentor's apiary, he took empty boxes off the bottom and put them on top of his brood boxes. His bees weren't building down, they were building up and he said that they didn't see those empty bottom boxes as open space. I was also under the impression that I should put an empty deep on top of the medium that my nuc will be living in and that they would move up into it because, "bees do what bees do".

In my experience, some colonies are more prone to moving up and some more prone to moving down.  For example, this year I didn't reverse my winter boxes right away, I waited about an extra week to see if the colonies that were only occupying their top box would move down into the empty box below, and most of them did.    One, however, just sort of refused to do so and was looking rather crowded in the top box, so I reversed theirs, and now they are working the other box.  I've also had times where a colony would resist moving up into additional supers, and if I undersupered, then they worked them without hesitation.  But usually I just put additional supers on the top.         

[2Sox]

>Curious what experience you all have with this.  Warre is all about this and I wonder - aside from the weight issue - why we don?t do more of this.

Actually Warre is big on Nadiring.  Nadiring is putting the empty boxes at the bottom of the hive, BELOW the brood nest.  Undersupering is putting the new empty super ABOVE the brood nest but below the full supers.  I have two reasons for doing neither.  One is weight.  The other is, how do you know to add more boxes without digging all the way down to the brood nest?  I want the empty space on top for my convenience.  It doesn't seem to make that much difference to the bees.  I'm sure undersupering has a slight advantage, but hardly measurable and not enough for to be worth the extra work.

Thanks for the clarification about nadiring.  This is the idea I had in mind with my post.  And a question comes to mind: How effective do you think nadiring would be to control swarming as opposed to opening the brood nest? (Which I know Michael has written of in his online publication.)

[Michael Bush]

>How effective do you think nadiring would be to control swarming as opposed to opening the brood nest?

I think it's as effective as adding empty boxes to the top.  Which is, during prime swarm season (Reproductive swarm season) it's not effective at all.  During a flow it would probably work the same as adding them to the top, which is very effective.  Opening the brood nest fools them into thinking they aren't strong enough to swarm and it resets the sequence of events by making holes in the brood nest.

[2Sox]

>How effective do you think nadiring would be to control swarming as opposed to opening the brood nest?

I think it's as effective as adding empty boxes to the top.  Which is, during prime swarm season (Reproductive swarm season) it's not effective at all.  During a flow it would probably work the same as adding them to the top, which is very effective.  Opening the brood nest fools them into thinking they aren't strong enough to swarm and it resets the sequence of events by making holes in the brood nest.

Yes, I really like that technique of opening the brood nest. I?ve used this technique many times and it works well.  Thank you.