Laying Worker Problem

[Michael Bach]

Over the past several weekes I have developed a laying worker issue.  It started soon after I hived some of my packages.  I noticed a problem in the 1st hive due to the queen was dead in her cage.  I requeened.  Upon inspection I have nothing but drone brood and multiple eggs per cell.  Hive #2 the queen was released and noticed multiple eggs per cell.  I was being patient due to the fact that I have read of newly mated queens sometimes being slopply.  Inspected today and nothing but drone brood.

SO, I did the far away shake method.  I went about 500 feet away a shook every bee out of the boxes and frames.  Brought back the empty boxes and frames and requeened.  I did this in a attemp to rid myself of the laying worker.  Though being that she is not a forager and will no know her way back to the hive.

Anyone else ever do such a thing?

[iddee]

There is not "a laying worker". There are "laying workers". They will fly in circles until they find a hive to join. If their old hive is the nearest one, they will find it.

[Michael Bush]

I have done such a thing and it does not work by itself.  Shaking out has it's uses.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

[Ollie]

Inserting a frame of open brood from another hive will stop the worker bees from laying. I think that there is a pheromone that goes with fertilized eggs.

[Michael Bach]

So after reading all your replies and more informational reading I was pretty down on my desicion to re-queen the laying worker hives.  I checked today, 5 days after re-queen and the queen still was not released.  They were about 80% through the candy.  The attitude of the workers was not agressive at all.  They was no balling of the cage.  They seemed interested in her "normally".  They were not going at the cage with their mandables.  It was very gentle and dosile.

I hope this is a good sign.

[sonny]

I had the same problem. The bees weren't aggressive to the caged queen so I released her. Mistake, she is probably back in Georgia by now. I just moved the hive 50 yards or so and shook out the remainder of bees to join other hives.

[Michael Bach]

I did my first inspection to verify the queen was released.  I had a long time Beek give me some queen pheromone to settle the hive if problems still were there.  I installed the pheromone and began to search of signs that the hive accepted the queen.  On the second frame I pulled, there she was.  Alive and well.  The hive had not killed her Like I had feared.  She had not started laying yet.  The best thing is I could find any cells with laying worker eggs.

I think the shake out worked and I rid myself of the laying workers or they accepted the queen and stopped laying.

Yipee.

[FRAMEshift]

I have done such a thing and it does not work by itself.  Shaking out has it's uses.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

On the page you reference, under the shake out and forget method, you say "It doesn't waste your time and money trying to requeen a hive that is going to reject the queen anyway. "  I'm missing something here.  Why would a hive with laying workers be more likely to reject a queen?

[Kathyp]

because they think they already have one.

[FRAMEshift]

because they think they already have one.

If they think they have a queen, why are they laying?  It's lack of open brood pheromone that causes them to lay, right?  And that would only happen with an absent or defective queen, so why would they be loyal to the old dead  queen?

As I understand it, the laying workers are trying to save the genes of the colony by making lots of drones to go out and mate with a virgin queen somewhere.  That makes no sense if there is a functional queen in the hive.

[Kathyp]

when there is no queen, they go into survival mode and workers start laying.  this makes the hive think it has a queen.  they care for the brood and carry on until dead.  if you stick a queen in there, they will consider her an interloper and kill her (most of the time).  

there are ways to introduce a queen or to add open brood over a period of time that will sometimes save the hive.  it depends on how much work you want to do.  how many resources you want to take from other hives....and to some extent, your skill level.

MB and others have posted pictures and instructions for making a wire cage for introducing a new queen.  there is also a frame contraption for doing it.  i think there is a pic on here somewhere.

shaking out the hive is easy and saves the bees.  it increases numbers in your other hives.  you can not allow them to return to the old hive.

[Michael Bush]

>If they think they have a queen, why are they laying?

The ones laying think they are the queen.

>  It's lack of open brood pheromone that causes them to lay, right?

Yes.

>  And that would only happen with an absent or defective queen, so why would they be loyal to the old dead  queen?

They are not loyal to anyone, they just think they have a queen, so any other queen is a usurper that is not theirs.

>As I understand it, the laying workers are trying to save the genes of the colony by making lots of drones to go out and mate with a virgin queen somewhere.

They are not trying to do anything.  Their bodies respond to the lack of pheromones and the time of year, food supply etc. and that causes them to start laying.  We tend to look for how that behavior helps the survival of their genes because otherwise the trait would not get passed on, so we come up with the theory that it's purpose is to save the genes of the colony.  Actually it may serve no purpose at all.  It's just what happens.

>  That makes no sense if there is a functional queen in the hive.

Biology often makes no sense.  Bees don't do this because of any rationale.  They do it because their bodies respond to a lack of pheromnes by developing ovaries.  That causes them to think they have a queen.  Their response to the queen is also a response to pheromones and instinct.  Their instict is that if they have a queen a new queen is a threat that needs to be removed.  Also, part of the response to a new queen is the state of that queen.  A queen who is laying and added to a hive is much less likely to be attacked than one who has been caged several days.  Brother Adam insisted he could introduce a queen who was still laying from the nuc she was laying in to the hive he introduced her to with no introduction whatsoever and the reason was she was a laying queen, not a queen who had been caged for several days and is not laying now.

[FRAMEshift]

Kathyp and Michael, thanks for explaining this.  I know that when we talk about bees, it goes through the anthropomorphic filter that tries to explain their behavior in rational human terms.  There is an entire chapter in Hive and the Honey Bee that argues against this, but I think it actually helps us understand them.... as long as we realize the bees are not really thinking as individuals.  :-D

Ok, so the laying workers "think" they are queens.  Do they make queen mandibular pheromone?  If so, do they attack each other as rival queens would?  If they don't make mandibular pheromones, would you expect swarm or emergency queen replacement behavior? Maybe not, since there are no fertilized eggs.

One more question....  does the drone brood produced by laying workers make the brood pheromone that would itself keep workers from developing ovaries?

I will try to find some answers in my reference books, but you guys are the best source of info because you are actually doing it.  Thanks for your help.

[Michael Bush]

>Ok, so the laying workers "think" they are queens.  Do they make queen mandibular pheromone?

They must make enough to convince the others they have a queen, but not enough to be convincing enough if I add a queen cell...

> If so, do they attack each other as rival queens would? 

This is a myth.  Laying queens seldom if ever attack each other.  Only virgin queens are looking for other virgin queens to attack.  Virgin queens, in my observation do not attack laying queens and laying queens do not attack anyone.

>If they don't make mandibular pheromones, would you expect swarm or emergency queen replacement behavior?

Exactly.  And sometimes they do.  They build queen cells, lay unfertilized eggs in them and feed the royal jelly.  But they don't emerge.

>Maybe not, since there are no fertilized eggs.

Once in a while they do succeed.  It's been documented, but not often enough for you to expect that to be the solution to a laying worker hive.  :)

>One more question....  does the drone brood produced by laying workers make the brood pheromone that would itself keep workers from developing ovaries?

Apparently not.  First there isn't much of it (if you look at open and capped brood in a laying worker hive it is spotty at best) and my theory is it's not the same effect as worker brood, so it must be different pheromones from worker brood.  Bees can definitely tell the difference between drone and worker brood as they clear out drones in worker cells regularly.  This can happen because of a failing queen, laying workers or an inbred queen (diploid drones).  But they can and do tell the difference, so obviously there are different pheromones.

>I will try to find some answers in my reference books, but you guys are the best source of info because you are actually doing it.  Thanks for your help.

You are welcome.

A great book on bee behavior is "The Wisdom of the Hive" by Tom Seeley.

[Finski]

.
Laying worker is not a problem.

First and last time I shaked the hive over 40 years ago.

When you put a larva frame into the hive and bees start to make queen cells, it is a sign that they have not a queen.
If they do not make queen cell, they may have a unmated queen there .

Laying workers are hundreds and more workers may englarge their ovule organs.

But that shaking method, it will never stop.

.

[Kathyp]

shaking out doesn't' work if you let them go back to their own hive.  they just take up where they left off.  if you shake them out and they have to join other hives that are queen rights, it does work.

frames of eggs work, but usually has to be done multiple times.  if you only have one or two other hives, you take the risk of ending up with all hives weak.

guess it just depends where you are with your bees.

how ya been finski??   :-*