Side Frame Thickness

[Ben Framed]

Any insect needs a very high moisture content to live.  A beehive is very moist.  Bees propolise the inside of the hive.  If they did not the equipment would not last more than a couple of years.  The amount of moisture on the outside is nothing compared to the inside.  What kills the equipment on the outside is the sun.  The purpose of painting a hive is to protect it from the sun.

Thank you Ace!! From now on, no more spruce frames here.. 😊😁

[Ben Framed]

Any insect needs a very high moisture content to live.  A beehive is very moist.  Bees propolise the inside of the hive.  If they did not the equipment would not last more than a couple of years.  The amount of moisture on the outside is nothing compared to the inside.  What kills the equipment on the outside is the sun.  The purpose of painting a hive is to protect it from the sun.

@ Acebird  Now we know why Howard Hughes scraped the plans on the Spruce Goose after only one flight!! Ahh haa haa . Who wants to fly a rotten, over size. Sea Plane..  😁😁.  J/K

[Ben Framed]

@ littlejohn
You sir have done you fair share of frame building and accumulated valuable experience  in the process. Thank you for sharing your knodlege.

Also thanks for everyone else for your responses.
Phillip

[Oldbeavo]

Getting back to the original question, the width of the side bar of the frame needs to allow some spare room so you can part the frames either side of the one you want to remove. This is to allow you to remove the frame without rolling bees or the queen.
New frames in an eight frame box have about 1" of spare room when all pushed to one side, seems a lot but once all the wax etc happens I still feel short of room at times removing frames.

[Ben Framed]

Getting back to the original question, the width of the side bar of the frame needs to allow some spare room so you can part the frames either side of the one you want to remove. This is to allow you to remove the frame without rolling bees or the queen.
New frames in an eight frame box have about 1" of spare room when all pushed to one side, seems a lot but once all the wax etc happens I still feel short of room at times removing frames.

Good point Oldbeavo... and you are right!!  Thanks for the post...

[Acebird]

New frames in an eight frame box have about 1" of spare room when all pushed to one side, seems a lot but once all the wax etc happens I still feel short of room at times removing frames.

I think it is the same for 10 frame too.
Except for the fact that the wider width of the side frame gives the frame strength I feel it would be better if the side bar was the same size as the top bar and just gage the spacing for what you want.  Maybe a carbon fiber frame with a removable bottom bar would be ideal?

[Ben Framed]

New frames in an eight frame box have about 1" of spare room when all pushed to one side, seems a lot but once all the wax etc happens I still feel short of room at times removing frames.

I think it is the same for 10 frame too.
Except for the fact that the wider width of the side frame gives the frame strength I feel it would be better if the side bar was the same size as the top bar and just gage the spacing for what you want.  Maybe a carbon fiber frame with a removable bottom bar would be ideal?

That's food for thought Ace. I don't see why that would not work.  Kind of along those same lines in a scene, reguarding the side frames being the same width as the top bar, i  watched a video of a fellow in, I think it is Cambodia but that might not be right so don't quote me. I can look it up if need be , but this guy was making frames and cutting side bars, with a skill saw / table saw. Home made job. But the bar width was the same as the top bar. What he would do for spaceing was later add shims according to the thicknessthat he wanted, along the sides. In another one of his videos I could  see that he also had added plastic shims to the side bar to acheave this same thickness. I tried to ask him where he got the plastic shims but the translation wasn't clear enough for a good answer. Of course this doesn't jive with your idea, only in that the side bar has the same thickness as the top bar. I suppose as long the frames would hand straight down, level, your idea would work?

[little john]

Getting back to the original question, the width of the side bar of the frame needs to allow some spare room so you can part the frames either side of the one you want to remove. This is to allow you to remove the frame without rolling bees or the queen.
New frames in an eight frame box have about 1" of spare room when all pushed to one side, seems a lot but once all the wax etc happens I still feel short of room at times removing frames.

One problem which British beekeepers face when using our standard hive - the British National (essentially a cut-down version of the Root-Langstroth, with a few wacky features added) - is that it was designed to accomodate eleven frames at 38mm (1.5") spacing, with just 2mm left over (in theory) as 'wiggle room'.

But - over the years the industry has settled on the use of 35mm Hoffman frames, which now leave an embarrassing gap at one end of the box - although it is just possible with the aid of a shoehorn to squeeze-in 12 frames, but only when they're new and un-propolised.  Those 'in the know', fill the inevitable 11-frame gap with a dummy board, which is 'inserted last and then removed first', that is, prior to pulling-out any frames.   Those who are not 'in the know' either spread their frames out equally, or leave a gap where there really shouldn't be one - with predictable consequences.

Perhaps you could use a similar 'dummy-board' method with your own hives ?
LJ

[Acebird]

Don't the bees cement the dummy board to the wall of the box?  Seems like you could make a half frame and keep it no farther then 3/8 away from the wall of the box.

[Ben Framed]

Don't the bees cement the dummy board to the wall of the box?  Seems like you could make a half frame and keep it no farther then 3/8 away from the wall of the box.

@ littlejohn I would like to know this also please sir ..

[little john]

I've never experienced a problem when using a dummy board - providing a beespace is maintained between it and the end wall.  If you don't, then they might well glue it to the end wall - dunno for sure, as I've never tried using them without a beespace - but why tempt fate ?

But - a lot of the time I don't bother using them - especially with (say) 5-frame nucs which have a large gap at one side  (due to their width being half of an 11-frame box) - but then nucleus colonies don't make much of a mess - the occasional wax 'bridge', but that's about all.
LJ

[little john]

Just wanted to add: generally speaking, gaps at the outside of a comb array tend not to create too many problems - as long as you don't make them far too big, by leaving a frame out completely - as bees tend not to be very enthusiastic about building on the outer side of the outside combs, and the worse that usually happens is that they build a few adhesive wax 'bridges' onto the box end wall which are easy enough to scrape off.

A much bigger problem can occur though, if spacing is excessive anywhere towards the middle of the array, especially if the colony is large, and if foundation is being used - for in such cases they will always be looking for any space within which to build drone comb.  This is perhaps the best example of 'creative comb-building' I've ever seen (on the Internet), and I just had to save a copy of that photograph !



A superb example of what can happen if you don't close-up those frames ...

LJ

[Oldbeavo]

It is not that you close them up, but you space the frames evenly, I the Paradise poly hives you can run 9 in the box with very little room but 8 frames also work if evenly spaced.
We had a stuff up when we were under supering and came across a super with no frames in it, we were already running seven frames in an 8 frame box, so six supers became 6 frames to be able to put 6 in the empty super.
Carefully spaced the bees blew out some enormous frames, about 2" thick, best (full depth) weighed 4.5kg or about 10lb.
Maybe because the started with stickies, fully waxed extracted frames they didn't make a mess.

[Ben Framed]

It is not that you close them up, but you space the frames evenly, I the Paradise poly hives you can run 9 in the box with very little room but 8 frames also work if evenly spaced.
We had a stuff up when we were under supering and came across a super with no frames in it, we were already running seven frames in an 8 frame box, so six supers became 6 frames to be able to put 6 in the empty super.
Carefully spaced the bees blew out some enormous frames, about 2" thick, best (full depth) weighed 4.5kg or about 10lb.
Maybe because the started with stickies, fully waxed extracted frames they didn't make a mess.

Thanks Oldbeavo, good information here appreciate your post. Always good information from you sir.
Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"