A Queen Question For You Deep Thinkers

[Ben Framed]

I am still searching for answers to my old question about queens and treatment. Bob Binnie in his queen rearing video, mentions his breeder queens and Sue Colby. He is very proud to have in his possession Sues genetics and rightfully so. In this discussion he speaks of the price of such AI/II queens and how careful he and his associate Tommy are when it comes to handling these queens and placing them into the timer box.

What stuck out to me was his mentioning the amount of smoke that was used on these hives, stating that excessive smoke can, in some cases, cause bees to ball an AI/II queen. That left a (Hum) to my observation.  Now this man is as rounded a beekeeper that there may be. He has done it all, from your land to mine, (America), when it comes to beekeeping from the ground up. From hauling bees, pollination, on and on is his long resume. So I do not take his words lightly.

Now to the thoughts and question. That being the accurate case; how much more would a hive be aggressive in balling a queen during a formic flash treatment? Perhaps that is the reason a queen (may be lost), while using formic. Perhaps they did not die at all form the formic or were lost to formic or its results in some cases, (excluding an already sickly queen that may have been infected with a bee virus from mites), but were simply balled by the hive itself when formic was used? Isn't this possible?

(As far as I know Mr Binnie may be a member here under a beemaster name. If so I would love to hear your thoughts to the above question / questions as well Mr Binnie).

[iddee]

""Isn't this possible?""

Bees can ball a queen for anything that upsets them. If a skunk scratches the landing board and makes breakfast of guard bees, then the keep smokes the hive and opens it. That may cause a queen to be balled. Removals from houses and placing in a hive often ends with a dead queen. ETC>  ETC>

[Ben Framed]

Thanks Iddee

[van from Arkansas]

Mr. Ben, I will tell ya a true story, to make a point about queens.

Last summer, I get a frantic call from a very experienced beekeeper who own 100s of hives, does pollination service from California to Arkansas, raises his own queens and procures honey for sale to the public.  The frantic call was HOW DO I RELEASE AN INSTRUMENTALLY INSEMINATED, II, QUEEN that cost mega bucks.  Remember that fella Binnie, he paid $1,000 for a single queen from Sue, a world renounced bee breeder.

Now back to the frantic phone call.  My friend is very experienced and has successfully raised and released queens numbering in the 1,000s thur the years.  Yet with all his experience my friend was panicking.  He was holding 2 each II pure breed Cordovan queens that are not replaceable.  There was no room for error!  Theses irreplaceable queens must be released without chance of rejection by the hives.  The queens are expensive and super rare.  I told my friend step by step a method that would assure acceptance.  My friend followed my instructions and both queens are doing very well to this day producing over 100 natural bred Cordovan queens.

The details for obtaining absolute queen acceptance is beyond the scope of this thread.  The point is, as ID iteration, bees can turn on a new queen for many reasons such as just opening the hive.  My friend was aware of possible rejection as he is very experienced as stated.  Your tread is about queen acceptance or rejection and factors such as smoke while contemplating rejection as real reason for queen disappearance when exposed to Formic acid and subsequent Formic being blamed for queen vanish.  This is called a false negative in science, sorta.

The outcome is the same with your question, the queen is gone wether by direct consequences of Formic or wether bees subsequently annihilated the queen caused by Formic stress.  This is a good question but very difficult to answer with specifics.  To me, I would avoid any behavior known to cause queen disappearance, but other beeks might be willing to take the Formic risk looking to the benefit of killing the mite in capped brood.

[Ben Framed]

That is a very interesting story Mr van and much appreciated of you taking the time to post it. Yes I can see by Mr Binnie, Iddee, and your explanations, where bees can turn on a new queen for many reasons. In Mr Binnies situation the queens he is speaking of are already established laying queens, doing their jobs producing eggs and reproduction. I do not know how long he has had the queens but need to watch the video again. Mr Binnie uses these queens as breeder queens removing them from time to time for the sole purpose of producing top quality queens. Placing these desired breeder queens in a timing box. Retrieving the larva of that specific frame at the precise time for grafting purposes. Very interesting technique that he teaches for sure.

I highly recommend anyone here who is a queen breeder whether hobbyist or professional watching Mr Binnies' teaching. He also uses one hive for both a cell starter and cell finisher as well. Isn't it great how there are many ways for a beekeeper to accomplish a specific goal with the option of different ways of doing so? Keeps beekeeping so interesting.

As most here know, I have been interested in the art of formic for some time. I have not had the courage to attempt to try it because the use is an art inself and my confidence level has not reached the point of diving in, even though I have studied it intently. The drawback seems to be sometimes loss of a queen. I would never attempt to convince or sway anyone here to attempt using this method that I have not used myself. In the meantime my curiosity of the process is genuine as I  proceed gathering information and looking for answers to my questions thereof. I have from time to time ask questions here to you experts that may be (related) to my questions I have concerning formic. This was one of those times. As you said, when a queen is lost she is lost. But, if balling is the culprit in formic flash treatment she may not have to be lost. If a keeper places her in a queen cage, leaving her (in) the box while the one day treatment is being conducted, she can not be balled by the bees, at least while she is caged. Still remains to be seen. I have previously ask about yalls  thoughts here of completely removing her while the treatment was in progress but if this might be even better. Again remains to be seen.....  Now, as Paul Harvey might say, now you know the rest of the story. 😬 And thank you for your valued reply.

Blessings

[van from Arkansas]

Mr. Ben.  That is very well thought resolution of queen caging.  I suggest you follow your well thought out path: cage then treat and post the results.  Not saying to cage every queen nor am I saying treat every hive with Formic, but rather a few hives and caging a few queens.  Then determine your results.  If you like the results, then repeat.  Honeybees are so dynamic, so adaptive there are many paths that lead to the same desired goal.

Cheers

[Ben Framed]

Thank you Mr Van.

[TheHoneyPump]

- leave her in there and roll the dice
- remove her, kill her, treat, requeen
- cage her, leave in hive, treat
- cage her, remove her, treat, reintroduce
- Put her under a push in cage with some nurse bees. Treat. Release later.

[Ben Framed]

- leave her in there and roll the dice
- remove her, kill her, treat, requeen
- cage her, leave in hive, treat
- cage her, remove her, treat, reintroduce
- Put her under a push in cage with some nurse bees. Treat. Release later.

That pretty much covers it all.   
Thanks. 

[Troutdog]

HP nailed it.
On the formic directions it says to use a drop of lemongrass oil.

Formic doesn't kill the queen the workers do.
The bees can't smell qmp so they think their queen is an imposter. The lemongrass helps in them having an odor that resembled qmp. Lots of milder treating is better than blasting a hot 65% 100ml. 50% 60ml.
If you wait till august your too late.
Treating should begin in spring and not chasing mites all fall.
No mite treatment works with 1 treatment. Not 1.
Apivar is an 8 wk constant low level exposure.
Shop towels and oils or glycerin is at best 21 days usually 14 here in NY.
Formic flash is 6 hrs.

You folks asking questions need to do more homework and understand how the treatment works on mites and the hives.
Risk reward.

What does 3 mites per hundred really mean?
How many mites are in the hive?
What percentage of mites are under cappings?
How does formic work on mites?
How does oxalic work on mites?
How does amitraz work?
Why even treat? When to treat?
Did you follow up on retesting for mites?
Was your treatment effective?

Know how a mite thinks and your guess work is minimized.



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[William Bagwell]

HP nailed it.
On the formic directions it says to use a drop of lemongrass oil.

Formic doesn't kill the queen the workers do.
The bees can't smell qmp so they think their queen is an imposter. The lemongrass helps in them having an odor that resembled qmp.

Would this also work when doing splits? Noticed back in April that the queen-less side was quit pissy for over a week until they raised a new queen. Am spoiled to  gentle bees I can check sticky boards (or feed when necessary) without wearing a suit. Too hot to put one on everyday for routine stuff.

[Ben Framed]

> You folks asking questions need to do more homework and understand how the treatment works on mites and the hives.
Risk reward.

Trout I have great respect for you and I am always eager to read your post. I am surprised at you this time. I suppose no one on this forum has ask more questions about formic than I have since I have been here on the forum. I started this topic asking questions. I suppose you are directing your comment toward me? (Needing to do more homework). I consider asking questions here a part of my homework. 

I have spent many hour studying  formic not only here but articles from professors of university studies here and abroad,  emails to famous research professors, researchers from here in America, Germany, France and other places abroad. Watched many hours of videos. I have studied other researchers such as Randy Oliver and others. Though Most answers are pretty well in unisons, I have also received some mixed answers from experts. So what do I do? I come back home here, asking you my friends your opinion of unanswered questions. I have had folks fall out with me here for asking about formic, folks who may have not done their homework and lost bees as a result, (folks which are very opinionated AGAINST formic.  Even A Tennessee bee inspector whom I admire and have great respect for, is a perfect example)

I have read numerous places about the drop of lemongrass oil. And still most answers that I received from these researchers EXPERTS is lemongrass oil REDUCES Queen loss. It does not stop it.

[Bob Wilson]

Lol. You guys are killing me! 

Sue is "world renounced" -rejected and unwanted instead of "world-renown"- loved and lauded.
We love "gentile" bees- not those mean Jewish bees, instead of "gentle" bees.
Spell check is messing with you guys. I laughed and laughed with you.

[Ben Framed]

Lol. You guys are killing me! 

Sue is "world renounced" -rejected and unwanted instead of "world-renown"- loved and lauded.
We love "gentile" bees- not those mean Jewish bees, instead of "gentle" bees.
Spell check is messing with you guys. I laughed and laughed with you.

Welcome to the fun Bob. lol Since you have learned to enlarge the size of your font you now can see what you have been missing,😁(and what YOU have been texting also) lol. We all know when using a phone to text, the phone check spell correction can sometimes change what was intended. Perhaps some of us, including myself, need to follow your lead and change our font size also, so we can see what we are posting and missing? lol But that would take away from the fun. 

PS I hope those pointed out little funnies did not distract you from the intended message of the post? If so I will gladly go back and change the one I posted about Sue? If not I will leave mine as is, keeping up the fun.  I see William changed his for you (gentle). William Don't pay any attention to Bob, he is just happy that he can now see again and is celebrating by crowing like a rooster. lol 




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[rast]

 The Bob and Ben Show, thanks you two for the laughter .

[Ben Framed]

   Your welcome rast glad we brightened your day!   

[Bob Wilson]

No, no. Let's leave all the personal mistakes we make, Ben.
Thanks for the laughs.
And yes, I just got another new pair of glasses today!

[Bob Wilson]

No offense or criticism intended, I hope you guys understand. It was just great amusement.
I greatly enjoy being on the forum with you.

[Ben Framed]

No, no. Let's leave all the personal mistakes we make, Ben.
Thanks for the laughs.
And yes, I just got another new pair of glasses today!

No offense or criticism intended, I hope you guys understand. It was just great amusement.
I greatly enjoy being on the forum with you.

Same for me my friend.    Laughter is good for the soul!  I think we make a good clowning around team. lol  Thanks for the smiles Bob. But let me ask you where did you get the glasses? I definitely need a pair! 




                                                                                                                                                                                .

[Troutdog]

It seems to me in this day and age the forum presents a candy store of information. I am suggesting that doing your homework will make you a better beekeeper. You will own it.
This chatter on formic is worrisome as it is potentially complicated unless you understand the parameters fully.
All I'm saying is most people don't recognize how strong formic is, what dangers it presents for human and bee, evaluation of risk reward, and how do you know if efficacy is worth the risk.
The directions on the packaging indicate using lemongrass. Seems like some people don't even read that. So my point is do some homework and make the knowledge your own, then ask.
Perhaps it just my frustration of teaching people for so long and seeing minimal retention.
There is information and then there is knowledge. Knowledge comes from taking the information you've collected and putting it together in a practical and useful methodology.  Understanding the parameters such as how does the treatment work on mites, how many mites do you have, what a wash and a sticky board really represent ,  what is the total mite count in real numbers not 2 per hundred but estimsting your true load so you can know how well the treatment worked are things you have to sort out for yourself to become adept.
So an example 3 mites per 100 in a hive of 30 000 is potentially 900 surface mites. 80 percent of mite load is under cappings. 10 percent of cappings have mites.
You have 5 frames of brood say 25 000 worker cells so 2500 new mites about to hatch plus your 900 is 3 400 mites. This at 1 per cell, it usually is more.  This is just an example numbers may be off  a few percentage points.
If your sticky board after a week shows 400 mites you might consider it successful at one level, but reality is you need a second treatment.
Understanding your enemy is key to defeating it.
Why the August rush in mite treating? Why not treat in the early season mid and end with a gentler treatment and keep numbers low? So your not chasing the mites...
By the time August rolls around the temperature is not on your side for formic. May and June would be wiser. The upper range temps of formic make it far more dangerous to bees and not more effective less in fact as the beard outside your hive shows you your treatment is not hitting the target.
So do your homework so you can make a successful strategy for dealing with mites. 
Here's your assignment for homework.
How do mites see
How many mites are produced in a cell.
How does formic kill mites
How does oxalic kill mites
How does amitraz kill mites
Does a brood break really work.
What happens to bees after treating?
Do mites generate virus?
What are the negatives about the treatment options.

Here's a great paper on mites with the exception of feeding on hemolymph which has been found in accurate by Dr Samuel Ramsey. They feed on the vitagellin.
https://bee-health.extension.org/varroa-mite-reproductive-biology/

Know this and you will become a mitochondriac. Lol cheers.

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