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Author Topic: My New Bee Shed Build  (Read 7592 times)

Offline Bush_84

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My New Bee Shed Build
« on: February 20, 2018, 09:04:32 pm »
Hello all. Just an FYI this will be a long term project. I?ll update as I get time to work on it. I have been thinking about this and planning this for a few months now. My existing bee shed is an old garden shed that is past its prime. The roof needs to be replaced. It also doesn?t have electricity. So I?ve been running an extension cord to it, which has always made me nervous. It?s heated with a space heater set to 40f. It?s ventilated by a vent that has an in-line fan and that is set to a timer.

My new build is in one of my out buildings that used to be an old hog barn. There?s a space in the back corner that is already enclosed on three sides. The wall on the back and the wall on the right are exterior walls. They are insulated with that beaded polystyrene. They have over 3? if the stuff. The wall on the left is an interior wall that is insulated with fiberglass. My workshop is on the other side of that wall.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mEESAfwrFbQsbWKB3

How it looked when I got started.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XejhKI3u570FJiiu2

All cleaned up. I found out that our barn cats were using the back corner as a litter box. So that was a fun surprise. Also I realized that I had an issue with those cut off posts. It is next to the far base plate. You can see it sticking out of the floor by an inch or more. I tried just butting the base plate against it but then my wall covers up the window, which is just a translucent piece of siding. I?ll fill that in with insulation in the winter. Have to keep it dark and warm.  So I had to shave that down level against the cement. Once that was done the baseplate sat on it nicely and the wall no longer covers up the window weird.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GZz8k4QhVM9VuXaE3

That?s as far as I got today. Tomorrow I hope to fill in the far wall with 2x4s. And figure out the door framing. We plan on replacing our exterior doors to our house this year. I?ll just reuse one of those. The one I plan on using is 36?.  Both unfortunately have windows so I will have to cover that up with a sheet of extruded poly or something. We also have a ceiling fan that we had planned on installing in our house and my wife changed her mind. So I will use that for air circulation.

https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/electric-heat/electric-industrial-heaters/profusion-reg-heat-garage-heater-5-000w/eh-4604/p-1444432293873-c-6328.htm?tid=8733420738056255587&ipos=6

I have one of these in my workshop. I?m about out of honey money. So I?ll probabky just move that over for now as a heat source. I may also buy a thermostat for tighter control over temp. I?ve talked to people who suggest using a vented propane heater as they are cheaper to use. They are more expensive up front. I?m hoping that my bees help somewhat and keeping the temp set to 40 will make it more reasonable to heat.

Still haven?t decided on ventilation. I could simply just take my current ventilation setup and move it over to my new setup. I?ve also read about people using a bathroom fan. So I don?t know. I?ve got time to figure that out. I?ve got to finish the wall, install heater, install ceiling fan, insulated attic, and run some electric before I worry about that. I?m also trying to figure out a way to vent this space without cutting into the siding. I?m thinking that I?ll put the intake on the ceiling going into the attic on one end and the exhaust near the floor going into the main shed space on the other end.

I?ll keep this updated as I go. Initial thoughts?
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Acebird

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2018, 09:49:04 pm »
I still think that you could find out from Ian how many hives per volume it would take for the bees to heat the space for 90% of the heat load.  Then you would only have to make up 10% on the coldest days.  You would have a better idea of how many hives you need and what space to build.  What is wrong with starting small?
A timer is the worst method of control.  Spend the money on a thermostat and maybe a humidistat so you have control.  Light bulbs can be used for heat because you are not going to heat the space above the temperature that the bees will break cluster and fly.  Maybe Ian has some numbers on air changes for CO2 requirements.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2018, 10:09:38 pm »
Ultimately I would love to have enoug bees to heat that space. Maybe long term. I just don?t have the funds to have kind of hive count right now. I want to continue to work on increase until I get there. In the meantime I have been been thinking about splitting the space in half. It already enclose on three sides and it was the perfect spot to do this. So either way I am exposing this space, but there?s nothing saying I can?t reduce it down to conserve heat. I would likely just build another wall splitting the space in half so my bees would overwinter in an approximately 12x12 space. I may yet contact Ian about this to get some pointers. For now I?m just going to focus on the basics and hammer out the specifics later. I can easily build the wall, insulate the wall, run electric (lights, outlets, switches), install fan, install heater without worrying to much about the fine points about ventilation and regulation of such or even how big I want to make the final space.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Acebird

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2018, 08:51:33 am »
So how many hives do you intend on housing?  It might be worth your while to make the fourth wall an inch smaller in length and height so you could move if for expansion.  Just pack the gap with insulation.  If you run power in the wall run it to a box with an air conditioner cord so you can plug it in when you move it.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2018, 09:50:15 am »
Unfortunately I am currently down to three hives. I purchased three Nucs for the spring. I am hoping to possibly take a nuc off of each hive and get to 12 hives if at all possible. I would like to keep expanding until I start to feel like keeping bees is work. I?d also like to keep a 2:1 nuc to production hive ratio. I find managing Nucs to be a lot more fun than production hives. At this time harvesting honey is a pain and selling Nucs would be more enjoyable. Even if I were to expand to 20 hives I think that 12x12 ft space would still be adequate. Building the dividing wall a smidge short isn?t a bad idea.

I likely wouldn?t run electric in the dividing wall. If I did divide the space in half I?d probably run two outlets in each space on opposing walls. The fan would likely be just directly wired. No need for a switch. A light on each side with a switch for each by the door.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Acebird

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2018, 02:13:06 pm »
LOL, I don't think you would have a problem fitting 20 hives in a 4 x12 space.  I would make the wall a tad short also because you might need a couple of johnsom pri's to lift and move the wall.  Also when the wall tips it grows in height because of the width of the wall.  You can always fill the gap with insulation.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2018, 08:43:34 pm »
I suppose some of that is dependent on your desire or ability to stack hives lol. One complication is that as this is an old hog barn the floor slopes to a center trough. So this separating wall will be a bit wonky. As far as how big of a space...I guess that is somewhat dependent on door placement. The door into my bee room is 10 feet from the right and a bit over 8 ft from the left. I could put the separating wall initially to the left of the door and move it to th right if ever needed. Either way I?m planning on wintering bees in the left section due to proximity to the breaker box. No need to spend more on wire than is necessary.

Edit I meant to ask if my pictures were coming through?  I couldn?t figure out how to post them to the topic but the link for the pics seems to work for me. I messed up on the base plate closest to you in the pic. Going into town tomorrow. Will need more 2x4s to finish wall.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YyKxLplPehbGKhly2
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Acebird

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2018, 09:14:13 am »
I can see the pictures fine.  Are you going to put a wooden floor over the concrete or is that framework for a wall?  If it is a floor then it could be level.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2018, 12:23:25 pm »
I can see the pictures fine.  Are you going to put a wooden floor over the concrete or is that framework for a wall?  If it is a floor then it could be level.

That?s the frame for the wall. I?m not planning on doing anything with the floor.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Bush_84

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2018, 07:03:20 pm »
https://photos.app.goo.gl/h9gtbBy7v7Bz1pSo2

So I got the wall finished and put up. After a few measurements I can put up my divider wall at about four feed from my wall on the left. That?d give me a 4?x12?x8? space. With Lang hive bodies being 20? I can fit two rows  with a small aisle between. That give me plenty of space for now. If I did ever expand I?d just move the wall as acebird suggested. I was contemplating putting the wall to the next stud over, which would give me over 5?, but I decided against it. I don?t need that big of an aisle and it?s just more space to heat. At this stage I?ll be able to likely fit all of my hives along one side anyways.

I did email Ian a few questions. He didn?t give me a straight answer as to how many hives it would take to heat a space but he did say that the minimum cubic feet per hive is 20 and that his current hive count actually brings him to 18 cubic feet. So a 4x12x8 ft space gives me 384 ft^3. If I still have three hives in the spring and add three Nucs in may I?ll be up to 6. From there I hope to take a few splits and make some Nucs to overwinter. Not sure how to count a nuc but if it?s a 5 over 5 nuc that?s the same as his single 10 frame deep at least in frame count. So for the sake of simplicity I?ll just count it as a hive. If I am able to make three Nucs from splits I?d be up to 9. If populations warrant I?d love to get to 12. If I get to 9 that be ~42 ft^3 per hive. If I get to 12 that?d be 32 ft^3. Not bad. It?d take 18 would bring me to 21. Any more than that and I?d be forced to move my wall I think (at least by the numbers). At this point having six productions hives and 12 Nucs each winter sounds like a good three year plan.

I?d put the intake on the far side on the ceiling. I could always connect it to the soffit. The exhaust would be on opposite side near the floor. So that?d be in the new wall on the left. Ceiling fan would be centrally located as would the door into the area. Heater would be on the ceiling in the back near where the intake vent would be.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 08:27:30 pm by Bush_84 »
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Bush_84

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2018, 08:55:27 pm »
Triple post ftw!  I wanted to share the link I found below. According to bluebee a hive will produce 20-40 watts. There are plenty of websites dedicated to calculating the required wattage to heat a space, which is meant to calculate which shop heater you need. According to a few sites I need between 350-450 watts for my 4?-12? space. I would need 12 hives to get close to that minimum.  I feel quite comfortable with that, especially with a good heater as a backup.

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=32136.0
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Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Yukon Bees

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2018, 07:07:53 pm »
Not sure if you ever looked at this document. Last page talks about indoor wintering. (i.e. 3-10g of moisture and 8-28 watts per hour) and describes the ventilation model.

http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf

The newest edition of https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13598243-beekeeping-in-western-canada also has a section on indoor wintering.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2018, 07:53:14 pm »
I have read the article but have not read the book. I will have to look into that. Seems very interesting.  I will be honest that I never noticed the chart on the bottom.  Capabees.org has a few cool articles on the subject. I will be honest that I have never looked into the volume of air moved by my current setup. A quick google search indicates that this fan runs at 65 cfm. So in a 4x12x8 I should be able to cycle the air in the space in six minutes if my math is correct. One thing I notice is that their fan pushes air out whereas mine pulls air in. I actively blow air in and passively let it move out. Maybe I should be doing the opposite. Either way at this time I?d rather over ventilate and have my heater run some. Seems like the safer route. I have found controllers that could turn my fan on/off based off of the humidity in the room. Not sure if it?s better to do that or just have it cycle two or three times a day fifteen minutes at a time as I?m doing now. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 08:20:30 pm by Bush_84 »
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline paus

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2018, 08:25:49 pm »
Your fan is rated at 65 CFM with open discharge when you put any restriction the CFM drops.  You are pressuring the shed so your flow will be reduced but if you were evacuating the air from the shed the flow would be less.  Having said all this in my ex-professional opinion you are ok.  If you have to reduce the flow of air, reduce  the inlet opening, the fan will use less current and in that temperature cooling the motor will not be a problem.

Offline Acebird

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2018, 08:49:42 pm »
One thing I notice is that their fan pushes air out whereas mine pulls air in.

It is the same volume of air going in and out.  If the fan does not frost up pulling the air in is OK.  I would assume you are providing an exhaust port.  If that doesn't ice up there should be no problem.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2018, 11:25:46 pm »
I plan (and currently use) an air intake high up on one side. The air intake is active in that it has the fan. The exhaust is passive and is on the opposite side of the shed close to the ground. I use those units that you put on the side of your house to vent dryer ducts/bathroom fan ducts. Mostly to keep mice out. So there will be some reduction, but my unprofessional opinion also thinks it?ll be fine. :)
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Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline paus

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2018, 09:10:35 am »
I think you "got It".  How do know when to move the hives in or out of the shed?

Offline Acebird

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2018, 09:19:18 am »
I use those units that you put on the side of your house to vent dryer ducts/bathroom fan ducts. Mostly to keep mice out.

I would have suggested mounting the duct about 3' from the ground and then install an elbow and a 2-1/2 foot section if you wanted to draw the air from the floor.  I take it the flapper doesn't freeze?
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2018, 11:43:38 am »
Moving in and out is dictated by my time and weather. It seems that they typically go in sometime in December and go out sometime in March.

I?ve never had issues with freezing. I?ll be honest however that where my shed is currently located it?s not easily accessible. It?s not far it?s just a trudge through some snow. I do check in them periodically. I can assess temp from the house. So when I do go out I check vent and mountain camp sugar. Whenever I have checked the vent has bee working. I wonder if I had a fan exhausting to the outside it I?d have freezing on the grill. Warm moist air going across the grill seems like a possibility, although after thinking about it I?ve never checked that lol. Just that air is coming in, never the status of the exhaust. Lol. Either way with my new setup my exhaust will go into the main body of my shed. So I won?t have to worry so much about that.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Acebird

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Re: My New Bee Shed Build
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2018, 10:05:45 pm »
The only place you will get frost is the outgoing air that has moisture from the bees.  The in coming air is cold and dry.
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