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Author Topic: Italians and the north  (Read 1580 times)

Offline Aroc

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Italians and the north
« on: March 16, 2019, 09:18:20 pm »
Well,  I?ve decided for my neck of the woods,  nothing is better than Carniolans.  We have a total of 11 hives.  All but two are Saskatraz or Carniolans... the other two are VSH which are an Italian cross.  All of the hives have made it so far except one.....one of the Italians.  We opened it up today to find a gigantic mass of dead bees....they went through all of their food and even the emergency food we gave them a month ago.

Actually kind of disappointed in myself.  Really felt we gave them enough food.  Never thought the hive would be so big so early in the year. 

Carniolans from now on.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2019, 09:28:25 pm »
No matter the strain, most that starve do so this time of the year. As you hinted, most keeps do not consider they will be feeding many thousand new mouths just before the first flow.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline paus

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2019, 09:38:19 pm »
Put my name on the list I lost one this week, my fault.
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2019, 10:51:57 pm »
Yep, me too, I lost a hive a little over a week ago due to the cold front with record breaking 12F,,,,, in March????  The hive was a support quality hive so no big loss.  Loss of A breeder quality hives would have hurt.  Very few bees in the dead out and 30-40 pounds of capped honey which is in the freezer.

Some future nucs are going to be very happy, with all that capped honey.
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2019, 10:59:54 pm »
I too was concerned about the very same problem happening to my bees 🐝. Thankfully Just in the nick of time a video came out warning of this very problem, especially in late winter, early spring. I posted my concerns under the topic here Deep Freeze Coming. Woolie B's YouTube channel is the place where I found  the video. I will try and find the video and post it here just in case there may be others interested.
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2019, 11:05:34 pm »
Below is the 4 minute video that I was referring to in post number 4 in case some of you might be interested.

EARLY Beekeeping Spring Management Very Crucial

https://youtu.be/xYWLLsnU-y8
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2019, 11:12:44 pm »
Let me add, I followed Wooley's advise to the letter. And I was surprised that each hive devoured the extra feed-pollen mix. I am happy to report that they all did make it. Woolie, if you are here at Beemaster. I thank you again!
Phillip
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 11:29:41 pm by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2019, 05:37:39 pm »
Mr. Ben, thanks for the video. I agree with most of what Wooly said.  However I took note of his mention cannibalize BROOD.  This needs some attention: nurse bees will not cannibalize healthy brood for lack of protein to my knowledge.  The nurse bees will warm, feed the larva and protect with their lives., the hive will even starve trying to keep brood warm.  Wooly did not make this clear.  Nurse bees will clean out dead brood and drag dead brood out of the hive.  I have seen this many times, dead freeze killed larva being dragged off by the bees.

FACT:  Further, nurse bees will cannibalize drone brood that are genetically defective.  This issue has been studied extensively.  The defective drones submit a cannabol pheromone that direct the nurse bees to eat the drone.  I believe these drones are called diploids, I think.  If M. Bush reads this, the fella will know for certain if they are diploid.  My point is: for nurse bees to eat larva, a special pheromone must be present and this pheromone has nothing to do with available food.

Cheers
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 06:00:03 pm by van from Arkansas »
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2019, 06:07:53 pm »
Thank you Mr Van, this is only the second time that I have heard of such a thing, " CANNABIZLING BROOD".  In a starving situation. But as you know, I am learning. Thank you for your input. And let me clear one more thing, I said I followed his instructions  to the letter. As I watched the video again I was reminded that I did not add vinegar. However, my bees did survive and thanks to Woolie.
They did eat  ALL the suggested feed during this last cold spell. I am very greatful to Mr Woolie for the video weather he is right or wrong about his suggestion of eating brood at this time of year for survivals sake. I will heed his advise in the future seasons, at this critical time, as far as emergency feeding situations, hopefully I will be as blessed and successful in the future as this first season.  Again thank you my friend. I have a long way to go in my bee studies and education! 😊😁
Phillip ,
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 06:46:07 pm by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline iddee

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2019, 07:18:31 pm »
Van, have you ever found "open" larva in a starved out hive? I haven't. I have read that the bees will eat the larva, but not the pupa, when starving to death. I believe this to be true.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2019, 08:40:02 pm »
ID, I certainly listen to you my friend.  No, I have not seen open larva in a starve out hive.  But I might add, I have never seen a starved out hive that I thought the queen was laying.  I have seen pupae, capped with pin hole in a dead out.

Let me clarify, I have never seen a hive die without honey in the combs.  Every dead out always had honey.  Many a times I have seen dead outs, winter kill, with honey on the very frame as the cluster, but the other end of the frame.  The honey, although only inches away, was to far away for bees to reach with temps in single digits.

So ID, do bees eat larva without cannibalize pheromone?  I did not think so, however, you have so many years experience, commercial I might add, if you say they do, then I will believe you.  I certainly don?t have the experience as you, I would be a fool not to listen to a wise one as ID, a man that has earned my respect, a man that worked bees as a living, totally different from a hobbyist as myself. 
Blessings
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline iddee

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2019, 09:05:24 pm »
Van, I have found deadouts with the bees buried head first in the cells, with 0 pollen or honey in the hive. They did not have any dead larva. I was not there watching when it happened, but it looked as I have read before. They ate the stores, then ate the larva.  No, I have worked for a commercial keep, but was not the owner. Only an employee. I have read a lot, and been in the bee yard many hours, but I can only guess as to what the bees done by what I hear, read, and what I observe after they are dead. It is my belief that they will eat the larva before completely starving.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2019, 11:00:20 pm »
Ok good enough for me, ID.  Owner or worker I can tell by the things you write you have knowledge.  That is all that matters to me.
Blessings
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Italians and the north
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2019, 10:23:43 am »
>...most keeps do not consider they will be feeding many thousand new mouths just before the first flow.

It's not just the mouths, it's raising those bees.  It takes a frame of honey, a frame of pollen, and a frame worth of water to raise a frame of brood.  This time of year they burn through a LOT of stores where up until they started raising brood they used almost none.
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