Virgin queens and swarms

[rdy-b]

*The bees?  They are still the same bees. They may have different lines, but they are still kept in exactly the same way that they were thirty eight years ago, with the caveat that once in a while I run OAV through the hives..  *

 yes many ways to keep bees have not changed--this is no reflection of the bee itself-
 are we waning away from the discussions of what modern day cell size has done to the bee???
is there now no difference between natural comb and the cell size found at over the counter vendors--
there are pages after pages on this site alone that debate the size of the bee --can a larger bee handle
a larger pesticide dose--are the antibiotic resistant stocks putting us on a treadmill -these have all been
talked about in-detail--this just scratches the surface--I cant say for sure but i recall someone referring
to a comment that Brother Adam made in his observation that he saw changes in the stocks of bees--
the comment was they used to be able to get a heather crop from the bees-but as  time passed for the bees to make a crop from the same fields they had to move the bees closer
and so it goes it is my opinion that the bee is not resistant to change--perhaps a closer look is in order--RDY-B

[rdy-b]

** So what was the point you wanted to make about swarms? We dont have many feral swarms any more, the mites have killed most feral hives. They die because of a pest we introduced to them.  So in that regard, the swarms that issue are smaller because they come from beekeepers hives.**

 yes this is a spot on observation --lets understand that in many places there are not feral stocks just stocks that are repopulating feral locations-from keepers swarms that are of modern stock--
ferals gone and modern stock is a plenty--
queens these days have been breed for a low swarm propensity -one of the ways this has been done is selection of
bees that produce fewer swarm cells--so this has also lead to problems with commercial stock not being able to requeen the colony after a swarm--these days there is a big failure rate for superseder and after swarm queen success--
the problems can be found close to the mother of the hive--queens today are not as queens where 38 years ago-
  RDY-B

[Michael Bush]

I see no shortage of feral bees.  People I know who collect them all over the country have observed no difference.  Dr. Thomas Seeley who has been tracking the feral colonies in Arnot forest since the 70s sees no difference in the density of feral colonies there.  I think you are mistaken.

[OldMech]

Then come on over a state Michael.. I can show you a dozen empty bee trees. I got the Room and board.

   When I do a cut out that has been IN a cavity for two years I find a lot of DWV and mites..   IF they can grow enough to swarm without treatment it is a surprising thing..   the hives surviving are those that swarm often.  the parent hive dies, the swarm lives long enough to swarm again and then dies...
   I have been watching the bee trees religiously..   There was a resurgence in the last ten years as the number of beekeepers skyrocketed..   most of those beekeepers are gone now in this area, and since they have given up, so has the number of "feral" colonies...
   I have been keeping an eye on numerous hives I thought may be survivors...  THey are all dead this spring, including the big hive in the old bee tree on the family farm.. and the winter was mild....   At this very moment, I do not know of a single feral hive in any of the usual/old locations, and I have not even set up my swarm traps this year, they are still sitting in the shed...  Rather than catch them, I want them to return to those locations first.

   So send some of those Nebraska survivors toward the East!
 

[rdy-b]

I see no shortage of feral bees.  People I know who collect them all over the country have observed no difference.  Dr. Thomas Seeley who has been tracking the feral colonies in Arnot forest since the 70s sees no difference in the density of feral colonies there.  I think you are mistaken.

the repopulating of feral locations is a blessing--the stock has changed --yes there are pockets of turain where
bees are not affected at the same rate as other areas--lets be realistic at what point dose the arnot forest represent
the need for bees-or even the benefit of bees--I will leave it to your wisdom on this mater--if we use the arnot forest for the litmus test can you give more information--i would like to know more about why this phenomena is occurring--I will spend some time to investigate the arnot forest--sounds like a good place to live  -but then again so did the fairerseas -- --RDY-B
http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/arnot/about/2010%20Overview.pdf
found some stuff-is this the right forest that they use for the study of hard wood trees--i had hoped that it was
in europe and showed that old stock is better than most--i would have cheered for that-but perhaps this is just
been a slower rate of polluting the gene pool--some times if the habitat is not beefriedly whats the point
of even setting bees --most would use this as there first consideration to set bees i know i do--can one make a living from bees in the arnot forest---if Im off the mark on this location please let me know-RDY-B

[Michael Bush]

The only real use of the Arnot Forest reference is that it is observed and has been measured and documented over a long period of time by a renowned apiologist rather than anecdotal observations by us mere beekeepers.  But I have received many more observations by beekeepers all over the country.

[BeeMaster2]

When I bought my farm in 2005, the only time that I saw bees was when the commercial beeks had their hives up against my property. The rest of the year there were no bees. My wife tried growing a garden. Lots of flowers but no fruit. Once I put bees out there she had lots of fruit/veggies. 2 other beeks had bees but they no longer have them.
Now even when I nor the commercial beeks have bees at the farm, I still see bees on the grass seeds and in her garden.
We are also getting a lot more swarm removal requests now in town then we did 5 years ago.
Jim

[rdy-b]

** by a renowned apiologist rather than anecdotal observations by us mere beekeepers. **

by this i take it that a mere beekeeper cant make a living in the a ARNOT FOREST
but a apiologist can this is heart warming at best--the avenunes are changeing--arnot or not--
--RDY-B

[10framer]

wow! this has been an interesting read.  i think rdy-b isn't expressing himself clearly toward the end when he get's into the changes of today's bees from the bees of 40 years ago.
i actually think he's right about that.  you don't see the old "german" bees that you used to see back then in many places.
i think he's saying we've bred some important traits out of the bees and that the gap created was being filled or partially filled by true feral bees until the varroa came through and decimated those populations. 
the feral bees today are predominantly from the stock that has been bred over the last century or century and a half (however long there has been selective breeding of bees in this country now).  those bees were bred to not make propolis, not swarm and have a gentle nature among other things and this has taken the overall quality of the bees down a notch or two.
his earlier points i probably don't agree with (or not completely) but i can barely remember what this thread was even about now.  i do think he's basically right about the gene pool we work with now being very limited compared to 40 years ago, though.
rdy-b, if i misunderstood you i apologize.

[OldMech]

  you don't see the old "german" bees that you used to see back then in many places.

   One in ten of my bees from locally bred queens is a black bee.. no stripes. They are descendants, or throwbacks to the bees that I managed for my mentor 30+ years ago. Yes, they are fading. With the loss of feral hives there are less of them now than ever before, but they are still there. You can still get them if you do a little searching.

we've bred some important traits out of the bees and that the gap created was being filled or partially filled by true feral bees until the varroa came through and decimated those populations. the feral bees today are predominantly from the stock that has been bred over the last century or century and a half (however long there has been selective breeding of bees in this country now).  those bees were bred to not make propolis, not swarm and have a gentle nature among other things and this has taken the overall quality of the bees down a notch or two.

   "We" the beekeepers, have been selecting for better stock for how long?  A thousand years? Two thousand? And you think in the last generation or two we have made a difference? Perhaps I need to buy AI'd queens to see this..  The only major difference in keeping bees I have seen..  (Besides treating for mites) is that packages DIE way more than they used to during winter.


   We still have the bees, or the ability to get bees from all over the world.
   Itallian, from South of the Alps and North of Sicily.
   Carniolan from Slovenia
   Russian from Primorsky Territory.
   European black bee from Great Britain.
    Imported bees from Australia?  Buckfast, Starline, Midnight, Caucasion, and Cordovan, as well as VSH breeds and MN Hygienic...  The countless lines of survivors available? Last but not least Africanized bees..
   From all of those bees, you also have the different LINES of those types to choose from..
   In example, Italian bees from Georgia, Texas, Florida, California, Hawaii, etc... IF you want commercial bees..  If you prefer bees produced by more local beekeepers, or just Northern winter bred bees?  The options are VAST!

   I have not had any difficulty adding new (resistant) genetics to my Apiary.. I bring in resistant bees from different places every year to add to the "mutt" status of my bees.. bees that survive winter just like they did when I was fourteen years old.

   I will not and can not argue that there is change coming,  but I honestly do not believe it is HERE, or that I will live to see it in my lifetime.

[10framer]

i doubt we started breeding for less propolis until we went to removable combs.  before that the hives were pretty much destroyed when the honey was harvested. 
if you have the real black bees you're one of the few people i know of that still does.  i haven't seen any since the late 90's.
i'm not suggesting that the selective breeding of the last 20 or 30 years has changed the bees.  i'm suggesting that the breeding of the last century or two has and that the feral bees that were keeping the old traits in the gene pool have mostly died since the varroa mites showed up.
my bees throw an occasional black queen that produces pretty hot bees too.  but the woods aren't full of them in georgia and alabama like they were when i was younger.
i think (but i can't speak for the guy) that's what he was trying to say.

[rdy-b]

**(Besides treating for mites) is that packages DIE way more than they used to during winter. **

and this itself is a cascade of problems--we talk about the queen freely--she is disposed to the changes
of our breeding programs--but if you take a closer look -it is actually the drones that are the link back to
the old genetics-(gee guys why are the drones always black)-the drone line-unfertilized eggs-pull the genetics from lines that are diluted but -remain
continuos-breeder queens using closed drone populations such as all-breeders use parent colonies for drone population have changed the strengths of the bee--your commercial stock is in fact limited to the drone parent
colonies that are provided for adequate insemination and other traights such as color itself-like the gordovan
italian that dominates the gene pool today -easy to see when gordovans fall away from the  Gene that dominates
the change color -happens very fast-the color of the exoskeleton changes(and this is why-she bred-with at least one none gordovan drone -or was superseded -and the new queen is breed to a drone that was out of line)--there are fail safe mechanism that bees have to propitiate the survival of the race--one is not to breed with drones from there own colony--its a very big mixing bowl-- so this is whats happening across the country-
because -haploid and diploid collide -- --its the very nature of the bee to change for there own survival
-its easy to just keep the blinders on and say thats not what i see-but the bees tell us different- RDY-B

[OldMech]

I'll have to get pictures of my drones..  lik the rest of the bees, they are all colors...  There are black drones, but I also have golden drones. and that theory only holds up to the drones father, which would be the grandfather of the other bees. So one generation removed..
   
   I cant argue those points 10Framer.  There is a movement to save the black bees, and I have seen them advertised if your interested in getting them again. I have enough of the genetics to keep me happy for quite a while..
   When the resurgence of beekeeping began, the number of feral hives greatly increased..  I can only assume that the excitement over saving the bees has died down a bit, because the feral population nearby is also fizzling out..   I didnt even out out swarm traps this year, because I want the swarms to re establish...    Of a dozen different locations, I have found only one that survived the winter. So, this will make the third year for this feral hive...  If they make another winter, I will put the traps out near them next year.

[10framer]

i used to want them but my throwbacks are hot enough.  i lose about a third of my swarms every year.  i don't set traps, i just check my home yard every day.  most establish where i put them but some refuse to stay.  my drones are the same way,
i went through a hive yesterday that is a swarm from my yard and the bees look like pure italians and are easy to get along with but the queen is as black as coal.  she's most likely getting a temporary pass.  i'm sure once the dearth kicks in they'll be rough as a cob.