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Author Topic: Weird looking brood - sick?  (Read 8218 times)

Offline ziffabeek

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Weird looking brood - sick?
« on: March 27, 2015, 05:55:40 pm »
Hey everybody,

I got deep into all of the hives last weekend.  4 look good, lots of brood, happy bees.  Then I got into the last hive that has been a wee bit pissy.  They have some weird looking brood.  I did not see a queen but there is definitely signs of laying.  They are short on population, but still flying very dry, I have some honey out open feeding for all the hives, but think I'll supplement this weekend with some sugar water on top of this hive.  Everything here is blooming too so if the weather stops getting cold there should be lots of resources.  I"m not sure if they'll make it.  Not sure if they are just weak or sick.  Like I said, looks weird to me.

I haven't seen this before, it's like they aren't capping the cells once the larvae starts to pupate? (I think that is the word, highschool biology was way too long ago.)  I considered foulbrood, but the caps that are there don't look sunken enough.  I didn't think to do the string test at the time, don't know why. 

The top 2 pics show the weird uncapped pupae that almost look like bee butts.  The bottom is the same hive one frame over.  You can see there are eggs.  Even though it looks healthier, that frame still felt weird.  The brood was creamier(?) pinker(?)  I couldn't put my finger on it, it just still didn't look right. In any case, what do you think? 

thanks for any help!

ziffa

Offline rwlaw

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 10:03:03 pm »
How does the hive smell, supposedly with foulbrood it stinks bad. The pattern looks really bad too. Hope somebody comes along that knows what they're looking at.
Just as a afterthought, I wonder if you've got chilled brood, if that's the case they should be dragging the pupae out. Are you seeing them on the landing board?
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Offline ziffabeek

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2015, 12:08:59 pm »
Thanks Rlaw,

I don't recall it smelling bad.  I am not seeing them drag anything out. They are flying, but not as strongly as the other hives.

I can't decide if it is just that they are weak and dying because of that or if they are sick.  I don't want to combine a sick hive with a healthy one. :(. 

Guess I'll just stick by the old stand by and drop in a frame of eggs and wait and see. . .

Thanks for the reply!

ziffa

Online Kathyp

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2015, 01:55:40 pm »
the cappings look fine.  the pattern looks fine.  is it only the older larvae?  they will pull them if they are damaged.  see what they look like when they are pulled out.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2015, 02:28:16 pm »
Is there any pollen in the hive?
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Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2015, 03:56:53 pm »
The larva in the prepupal have been uncapped after they died.  American Foulbrood dies in this stage, as does Sackbrood and Chalkbrood.  European Foulbrood also dies in this stage, but usually it is seen in larva that are still in the curled stage.  In EFB the remains are "rubbery" and easy to remove from the cell.

If you have seen no "mummies" that would rule out Chalkbrood.  If the remains do not form the water filled sack with the raised dark head, that will rule out Sackbrood.  If the remains do not form the coffee with cream coloration, and the remains are not sticky and do not string out when mixed with a stick, and the "scale" that is formed is easy to remove from the cell, it is not American Foulbrood.

If you have been lax in your varroa mite treatments what you are seeing could be Bee Parasitic Mite Syndrome, or as it is called now Idiopathic Mite Syndrome.  This is when the virus load the mites transmit kills the developing bees and the remains look like a mix of diseases, especially AFB and EFB, but the remains are not ropy, and are watery, not sticky.

If you give brood to the sick colony make it sealed brood.  The young bees will help in the house cleaning.  You can look in the empty cells for signs of varroa and do some mite counts to give you an idea if varroa is a problem.  A good book on bee diseases or the USDA websites are interesting reading.

Offline rwlaw

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2015, 04:28:07 pm »
Ziffa, pls do keep us posted! It's something I've not seen before. Mayhaps you should find somewhere to quarantine the hive till you find out what is.
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Online Kathyp

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2015, 09:32:55 pm »
Poor nutrition is also a possibility. The biz will pull out the damaged or malnourished larvae at the stage and discard them.
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Online Kathyp

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2015, 09:33:50 pm »
Bees.  Voice to text. 😄
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline OldMech

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2015, 11:02:46 am »
My first thought was VSH traits.. uncapping brood that has mites in the cells. I will also be watching, interested in how this goes.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2015, 02:55:47 pm »
VSH bees usually uncap and remove pupa in the pink/purple eye stage.

Offline ziffabeek

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2015, 04:04:09 pm »
Hi all!

Thanks so much for the replies.

I'm leaning toward malnutrition.  There was very little honey and pollen in the hive.  I think the cluster is small and got behind the others in the early spring gathering.  I'm an intuitive beekeeper and that is the answer that feels right.  Besides, I think Iddee and Kathy are mystically linked to my hives because they are  just about always right when it comes to them :).

It doesn't feel like foulbrood.  I've seen that before and this doesn't really look like it to me.  The cappings that are there are not depressed and the uncapped brood is not decomposed - just looks unfinished. 

I put food on them directly.  It's a beautiful warm day here and all the hives are flying.  I can see pollen going into the hive.  Unfortunately, I don't have the schedule to do a combine today.  I am going to give them a week and then check them and make the decision to combine then. 

As an aside question - how long does pollen last in the fridge?  I have some I ordered last year that has been sitting unopened in my fridge.  Wonder if I poured some of that on the inner lid? 

All the others are in full gusto and the bee-highway is in full swing! - Hello spring!

Thanks again.  I will post back results in a week. 

love you guys!

ziffa

Offline OldMech

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2015, 08:03:11 pm »
VSH bees usually uncap and remove pupa in the pink/purple eye stage.

   Do they?
   What I have seen, I agree, they do START to uncap at that stage, but as far as I have seen, they do not follow rules and ONLY uncap at that stage?  Please enlighten me if that is wrong?   (Enlighten my bees too!!!)
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2015, 09:06:26 pm »
At best, trying to diagnose without the comb in hand is just a guess.  The mother mite lays her first egg after the larva has pupated, I have not seen any pupa, only prepupa.  It appears to me that the brood has all died before they reached that stage.  The bees display hygienic behavior, but is it VSH hygiene?  I think a varroa problem may be the cause, but I would think that dead pupa and chewed pupa would be seen.  I would like to see the walls of the cells and see how much varroa scat is there. 


Offline ziffabeek

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2015, 10:55:15 am »
Yikes!  That is exactly what it looks like!  I'm so glad I inspected that hive last.  But now i'm freaking out that i've spread it! 

Thank you Michael! 

So, I'm thinking I need to pull the frames that have it and destroy the wax.  Can I requeen from one of my other hives or should I purchase?  How persistent is the virus?  Yuck!!!

Thanks for the links. Time to get my google on.

love,
ziffa

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2015, 09:53:09 am »
I know of no treatment.  Sac Brood is caused by a virus (SBV), and that is spread by the Varroa.  I did not see much of it for 30 years or more but in recent years I've seen it more and more in stressed out hives that people show me.  I would consider it part of the set of symptoms of Parasitic Mite Syndrome (PMS) along with deformed wings (DWV).  It's difficult to turn a hive around when it gets that stressed, but requeening won't hurt.  Make sure they have resources (honey etc.) to remove stress.
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Offline ziffabeek

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2015, 11:43:44 am »
Okay - a few more questions:

1.  Can I pinch the queen and give them eggs to raise their own from another hive, or should I buy a queen.
2.  Should I put the old pollen on the lid or does it go bad?  (In the fridge for about a year.)
3.  I may (or may not) have put some empty frames from this hive into another hive.  I'm not 100% sure because I pulled an empty box off of this hive and it got mixed in before I realized it.  How bad is this? 
4.  If I decide I need to just destroy the hive, how do I do that? If bees "drift" to one of my strong hives, is it in danger of contracting it?  How freaked should my neurotic self be about this possibility?   

Thank you for any further advice!!

ziffa

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2015, 01:13:42 pm »
>1.  Can I pinch the queen and give them eggs to raise their own from another hive, or should I buy a queen.

I would never buy a queen.  I have a lot more faith in the bees to rear a good one than the quality of the purchased queens.  On the other hand they are already stressed.  Going without brood for a time is going to stress them as well.  A brood break also might help.  Maybe a frame of eggs so they can get a queen started, and then a frame of emerging brood to keep the population up.

>2.  Should I put the old pollen on the lid or does it go bad?  (In the fridge for about a year.)

Old bee bread in a comb?  Pollen from a trap?  Bee bread is fermented and keeps pretty well.  Pollen from a trap does not keep well unless you freeze it.  But it may be better (or not) than what is available.  I feed dry pollen in an empty hive in the open.  Put it on a piece of window screen over a SBB over a solid bottom to keep the pollen dry.

>3.  I may (or may not) have put some empty frames from this hive into another hive.  I'm not 100% sure because I pulled an empty box off of this hive and it got mixed in before I realized it.  How bad is this? 

Nothing you can do.  It's more a matter of stress than pathogens...

>4.  If I decide I need to just destroy the hive, how do I do that?

No reason to.

> If bees "drift" to one of my strong hives, is it in danger of contracting it?

I think SBV is pretty endemic.  It takes stress to bring it out.

> How freaked should my neurotic self be about this possibility?   

Don't worry.  Be happy.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline ziffabeek

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2015, 02:20:51 pm »
Thank you Michael, you're the best!

ps.  Will you just follow me around whispering that last one?  :) I kinda need it.  :shocked:

love,
ziffa

Offline OldMech

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2015, 10:11:59 am »
LOL
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2015, 10:35:28 am »
Ziffabeek, how is the colony doing? Has the disease problem cleared up?

Offline ziffabeek

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 02:52:39 pm »
Just a quick update for some of you who asked.  Sorry to take so long getting back here!  Busy life.  Tooo busy.

I followed Michael's advice (well, except maybe that bit about the worrying . .  .)  and pinched the queen (my first queen pinch /cry).  Then I added a frame of honey, frame of nectar/pollen and a frame of brood with eggs, larva and some capped.  Closed them up. 

That was on April 4th.  When I got back from travels I checked them on the 22nd.  I saw no queen cells and no eggs and no brood.  But i figured if they had made a queen, she probably wasn't laying yet.  Was hoping I might have seen the remnants of a queen cell, but didn't see anything that looked like it.  I added a frame of eggs (Michael Bush/Iddee style - when in doubt, add a frame of eggs.)  Checked them again on this last Sunday.  Still saw no signs of a queen or eggs.  They were, though, and have always been since I pinched, pretty dang calm.  I added a frame of half capped brood with eggs and larva, just in case.  That afternoon I saw a small orientation flight.  Hubby reports that on Monday there was quite a large one.

So.  I plan on checking again this weekend to see if I can find a queen and/or eggs or brood.  They are definitely pulling in nectar and had filled quite a bit of the comb.  They still don't have as much pollen as I would like, but have seem to be in a better spot than a month ago.

I will report back after this weekend.  Fingers crossed I can find a queen and she is laying and healthy. 

Thanks for your comments and care!

Happy Spring All,

love,
ziffa

Offline Rurification

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Re: Weird looking brood - sick?
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2015, 12:54:04 pm »
Thanks for the update, Ziffa.     I learn a lot from posts like these and a longer term perspective really helps out.     Hope the colony is well next time you check. 
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