Author Topic: Creating late season nucs (Read 2497 times)

Bob Wilson · « **on:** July 14, 2022, 11:38:00 pm »

I would like to make a few nucs off two strong hives. We are in the middle of dearth, but the fall goldenrd flow (I hope) comes in August-early October. I will be checking to see if there are still drones walking the combs. I wintered a 5 frame nuc last year (created in spring) that did great through our mild Georgia winter.
1. Will a new queen sufficiently mate in late summer dearth?
2. In the next 2 and 1/2 months, through dearth and fall flow, will she lay up a 5 frame nuc of winter bees?
3. She should emerge in approximately 2 weeks (July 29), then mate and begin laying 2 weeks later (Aug 11), then her first brood begins emerging three weeks later (September 2), just in time for the 6 weeks of September and early October goldenrod flow.
4. Can late season splits succeed?

mark · « **Reply #1 on:** July 15, 2022, 12:03:16 am »

same timing as nucs i made last year that wintered fine. i'm north of you in new jersey. they should do well

Ben Framed · « **Reply #2 on:** July 15, 2022, 12:12:33 am »

Quote from: mark on July 15, 2022, 12:03:16 am

same timing as nucs i made last year that wintered fine. i'm north of you in new jersey. they should do well

>they should do fine.

I agree with Mark if done correctly...

1. Will a new queen sufficiently mate in late summer dearth?
Answer:
I do not see why not. David at Barnyard Bees has success. He is n Georgia, though further North than you Bob.

2. In the next 2 and 1/2 months, through dearth and fall flow, will she lay up a 5 frame nuc of winter bees?
Answer:
I made 5 nucs in September in my area my first year and all five 'thrived'. I used mated queens. Your queens should be mated by then if you start now. (I fed both sugar water and open fed pollen through the fall and winter. They would take pollen as long as the temperature was 43 or above on a sunshiny day)

3. She should emerge in approximately 2 weeks (July 29), then mate and begin laying 2 weeks later (Aug 11), then her first brood begins emerging three weeks later (September 2), just in time for the 6 weeks of September and early October goldenrod flow.
Answer:
Yes

4. Can late season splits succeed?
Answer:
Mine not only succeeded but thrived. I followed the instructions of, again David at Barnyard Bees. That is where I got my mated queens for the splits as well.

FloridaGardener · « **Reply #3 on:** July 15, 2022, 12:25:34 am »

Yes, especially if you have stores frames in the freezer and can parcel these out when there are enough bees to defend them.

Or feed 1:1 with a wisp of salt - that will help them brood up. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34121873/ Don't forget the zinc. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/eea.12342

Keep in mind that each time you add a stores frame it smells like a delicious free meal to your big hives. So - small entrances, landing boards, colored markers on top to help the new Q mate & get back; then robbing screens on those small entrances until they get to medium size.

yes2matt · « **Reply #4 on:** July 15, 2022, 11:44:30 pm »

Also in Piedmont, latest I've raised new queens is August.

Only be smart manipulating them in dearth, broken/open honey combs can set off robbing in a hurry.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Bill Murray · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2022, 12:00:01 am »

Bob to answer more thoroughly,
1. Will a new queen sufficiently mate in late summer dearth? Only if sufficient drones are present. why not wait a month, or until you have drones.
2. In the next 2 and 1/2 months, through dearth and fall flow, will she lay up a 5 frame nuc of winter bees?
Answer: If you can keep them from getting robbed out, If she mates, maybe. Just give it the old Irish try, then you will know what to expect.
3. Skipping this one.
4. Can late season splits succeed?Answer: Yes, I do it every year. Start 2nd week of AUG. or when they start making Drones. But I only run about 70 percent on mating and about 30 percent of those dont winter over. So 40 percent is what I have from them. Drones are scarce in the summer, better in fall after the minor flow starts. If you start in the summer you need to keep up on the robbing issue. After the fall flow not so much.You could get mated queens But they have probably been banked.

I would say just do it, and figure it out for your area, and good luck, let me know how it goes.

Bill Murray · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2022, 12:08:42 am »

I cant help it. Why would you even try in the dearth, knowing you have a fall flow coming??

paus · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2022, 08:29:21 am »

A few days ago I asked for advice on a late swarm I caught in a trap. I was feeding them and they were doing well they were taking almost a quart a day, "BUT" I did not put a robbing screen on the box, I had never had one. Another "BUT" I will have some robbing screens next time. Yep they were robbed out, and they were going to be my babies until next spring. Another lesson I knew but did not learn.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2022, 08:57:05 am »

Paus,
You may have wax a virgin queen in that swarm and she may not have survived her maiden flights. Hence they were stressed out and the other hives detected this and robbed them.

Jim Altmiller

Ben Framed · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2022, 09:06:47 am »

Good point Jim.

Paus, I do not know what feeding method you used but if you used a 2 gallon frame feeder, you should not have had the need to open the hive or check the hive to see how much they were taking each day. This is one advantage of using the the two gallon frame feeder this late in the season because it avoids open exposure. This type feeder should offer the swarm feed for at least eight days minimum. The feeder enables the feed to be /safely tucked away/ within the confines of the hive, similar as is honey and nectar stored naturally 'within' the hive (if you will) a great aid in helping to avoid robbing. When the eight days are up, you will 'very carefully' yet 'quickly' 'without' spilling a drop, add more sugar water and get the top on pronto.

Phillip

Bob Wilson · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2022, 11:12:11 am »

Now I am having second thoughts.
Opening up my hives, taking out honey, and creating nucs will expose the colonies a lot. I am working on quick inspections but it always ends up longer.
Perhaps it will be better, like Bill said, to wait till the August/September fall flow.
However, that shortens the time for the queen to prepare for winter. Can she be ready by the end of October?
Is there any problem or trouble with waiting to create the nucs till mid-August?

paus · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2022, 12:05:58 pm »

I opened the hive late yesterday, web worms had a small start, so in the freezer the frames went. Jim I have a tendency to think you nailed it, as no brood or eggs were seen. With the DSBB I make the opening so it can be closed almost shut on one side and I had a front feeder on the other. The robbers had to cross to the other side of the hive to get at the feed. I also make a feeder that is placed on the back and I have never had these robbed so Phillip you may be right also , yes, I have one of the two frame feeders but have seldom used it, as I have to open the hive to check and refill. I like the back feeders as the bees don't know when the feed is serviced except for the bees that are feeding. You can check these feeders visually. I also use two of these feeders on my three frame, four colony nuc boxes. YEP mybad.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2022, 12:12:49 pm »

Paus, I like the idea of the back feeder and the advantages of it as you explained. Thanks

Phillip

Ben Framed · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2022, 12:23:03 pm »

Quote from: Bob Wilson on July 16, 2022, 11:12:11 am

Now I am having second thoughts.
Opening up my hives, taking out honey, and creating nucs will expose the colonies a lot. I am working on quick inspections but it always ends up longer.
Perhaps it will be better, like Bill said, to wait till the August/September fall flow.
However, that shortens the time for the queen to prepare for winter. Can she be ready by the end of October?
Is there any problem or trouble with waiting to create the nucs till mid-August?

In my situation described above, I bought mated queens and I had the advantage of the Fall flow. Which followed the good recommendation of Bills If you buy mated queens then that is the best bet in my opinion ti wait until later. I was considering your idea of raising your own queens and the time frame involved.
To do it properly, you really need a mating yard the proper distance away from you apiary which will detour, for the most part, the problems we have been discussing. Such a yard between two apiaries, the proper distance for drones to congregate for our virgin queens to visit. Even better is a mating yard between 3 apiaries set in a triangle, I have been told. But the former should do it.

Phillip

Bill Murray · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2022, 12:34:03 pm »

Quote

To do it properly, you really need a mating yard the proper distance away from you apiary

Touche

Bill Murray · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2022, 12:58:13 pm »

Quote

I like the back feeders as the bees don't know when the feed is serviced except for the bees that are feeding.

Ok, I am totally clueless as to what a back feeder is can someone explain please.

FloridaGardener · « **Reply #16 on:** July 16, 2022, 03:28:41 pm »

Just inspected today 7-16 and I have newly emerging drones. Six weeks (Sept 1) out they will still be be looking for Mrs. Right.

My latest-of-the-season sucessful queen emerged on 9-16-2021.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #17 on:** July 16, 2022, 03:49:32 pm »

That?s good timing FG. Did you place drone comb for this purpose of timing, or did this occur naturally?

Phillip

Ben Framed · « **Reply #18 on:** July 16, 2022, 06:20:46 pm »

Quote from: Bill Murray on July 16, 2022, 12:58:13 pm

Quote
I like the back feeders as the bees don't know when the feed is serviced except for the bees that are feeding.

Ok, I am totally clueless as to what a back feeder is can someone explain please.

Bill Im not exactly sure how Paus has perfected his back feeding set up. I do like the idea since the bees should not be allowed to enter the back of the hive where the feeder 'might be' located. I am taking for granite that the feeder is the only thing that can fit into the opening of the back of the hive location. The only way potential robbers could enter the hive is find their way to the opposite end of the hive, to 'the front' of the hive, to enter. I am interested in Paus method as well and would like to hear more from Paus on this as you would.

Phillip

paus · « **Reply #19 on:** July 16, 2022, 08:53:03 pm »

If I can figure out how to do pictures I will do that, but for now... I made a jig and drilled two holes in the back of the brood box, that fit 1/2 pvc I use a 3-4" length and cover the bottom and top. I have a hole saw just the size of a fruit jar lid either prepunched or I punch the holes for feeding, I use one screw to mount the feeder. When I remove the feeder I plug the holes with one of the cutouts and screw 1 or 2, 3/4" screws to hold the plugin place until the bees propolize it. They can be a little hard to reopen sometimes so I just redrill with hole saw if needed.