Worthwhile to wash jars straight from the factory?

[omnimirage]

I'm buying my plastic and glass containers in bulk from a warehouse distributing company. I asked them whether I should wash the jars before storing honey in them, and they recommended for me to give them a rinse with warm water in case bits of plastic residue or whatever mistakenly founded their way in the jar.

It's no problem to rinse them, but drying them is a pain as it's imperative to remove all the moisture, otherwise the honey might ferment. I got a couple hundred jars of honey that I need to fill with honey. I figure wiping with a towel isn't sufficient in removing all the water, so I've been drip drying them. I can't just place them flat down, as the moisture then can't escape. Nor can I just leave them in the sun faced up as dust or whatever might drop into them. I've had to do creative things for such, lately I've been placing chop sticks underneath the jars, and placing them face down so that water can drip onto a paper towel underneath. With the amount of jars that I need to wash this time around, I literally cannot fit them all in my kitchen, and my house mates were annoyed enough as is with me taking up all the space for a day or two to let them drip dry. I'm guessing I'm going to have to let them dry outside and work out a way that bugs or dust or whatever doesn't wind up in them, maybe I could lay down cotton towels, with the paper towels and chop sticks on top.

It's just a pain to do and I'm left wondering if it's even needed. I figure the factory would of course recommend such in order to avoid me blaming them that there was something left over in the jar. Is it worth washing them with warm water? Is there a better way of drying hundreds of jars?

[little john]

Cleanliness/food hygiene is not about being "worthwhile" - it's a legal requirement in all developed countries.

A packaging material may contaminate food if it is not clean and free from foreign matter.  Therefore packaging materials must be protected from contamination before they are used.  Contamination may occur from dust, dirt and pests. A packaging material that may be contaminated must not be used in contact with food.

Example
A food business is storing packaging material for use in contact with food in a shed at the back of the premises. The shed is not clean nor vermin proof. The food business needs to find a more appropriate place to store the packaging material, for example a food storage area.
https://www.foodstandards.gov.au/publications/documents/complete_safefood.pdf

LJ

[Jim134]

The local health laws were I live.. You do not need to wash new containers... If you do wash new containers Such as  Plastic.. Most likely it will never stand up to a process..  of washing...
  All I can say check your local  Health and food laws..


                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 

[BeeMaster2]

I like to buy the jars that come with the lids on. They keeps contaminants out and all you have are material that have been manufactured under high heat and then pot together and sealed.
Jim

[omnimirage]

The ones I buy are tightly packaged with plastic wrappers, without the lids on they're sold separately.

The question is to me would these factory fresh new containers be considered contaminated?

[tjc1]

I was going to suggest loading your dishwasher full and running it on the shorter prewash and then the heat drying option... I would guess that you could likely do 60 to 100 at a time depending on the size. Of course, you have to have a dishwasher... or a friend with a dishwasher...

[little john]

The ones I buy are tightly packaged with plastic wrappers, without the lids on they're sold separately.

The question is to me would these factory fresh new containers be considered contaminated?

As I see it - you don't know what the storage conditions have been like within the warehouse - or between manufacture and initial packaging.  All it would take is one inspector's visit to spot an 'unclean' jar - or far worse, some kind of infection which could be linked (even indirectly) to your premises - and you'd be in deep poo.  Why take that risk ?

I'm reading that washing and rinsing isn't the issue for you - it's removing the moisture afterwards ? 

Thoughts: use a dishwasher - or - place a couple of dozen washed and rinsed jars at a time (right way up) in an oven set at around 125 deg C.  Or - don't bother: if you wash, then drain well, and then shake-out any remaining drops - how much water remains as a percentage of the honey which is about to fill the jar ?  It must be an incredibly tiny amount - and thus negligible ?  Unless your honey is right on the margin, I can't see such a tiny trace of moisture making much difference.

LJ

[Jim134]

Thoughts: use a dishwasher - or - place a couple of dozen washed and rinsed jars at a time (right way up) in an oven set at around 125 deg C.

    Look like you may have missed something ??? For how many minutes you leave   Plastic containers in the oven ?   Are you actually using a commercial dishwasher ??

             BEE HAPPY Jim 134

[little john]

Thoughts: use a dishwasher - or - place a couple of dozen washed and rinsed jars at a time (right way up) in an oven set at around 125 deg C.

    Look like you may have missed something ??? For how many minutes you leave   Plastic containers in the oven ?   Are you actually using a commercial dishwasher ??

             BEE HAPPY Jim 134

Missed something ?  Only if a reader is nit-picking ...

They were just a few 'off the cuff' thoughts - ideas voiced out loud intended for (hopefully helpful) consideration - and not comprehensive recommendations or detailed instructions.  BTW - plastic containers are not normally called 'jars'.

I notice that no-one else has taken issue with the above post during the last week.
LJ

[Jim134]

Would it make you feel better if I called them all containers???

        BEE HAPPY Jim 134 

[UrbisAgricola]

I towel dry while they are still warm/hot then let sit a minute or two to air dry further.  I'm sure that people will disagree with me, but if the honey is at a good moisture level, I seriously doudt any moisture left after towel drying is going to be the tipping point for fermentation.

[Acebird]

Unless the jars are used I see no purpose in washing them prior to filling.  The jars should be packed into a cardboard box with mouth down.  Although I have received plastic jars in a plastic bag probably because I don't buy many.  I would rather see someone set up a blow gun with filtered air to hit each container prior to filling then actually washing the container.  Washing and wiping out containers can actually bring in more contaminants then doing nothing.  I wouldn't vote for having the lids on either because that could easily cause condensation on the inside.  Moisture is what all living things need to grow.  Germs are everywhere.  They are harmless until they get access to moisture.  If the jar is dry prior to filling with honey there is no problem but if something had a chance to grow prior to filling that may not be the case.  It would not be for certain that it would be bad but it is not for certain that it would be good either.

[Dallasbeek]

Unless the jars are used I see no purpose in washing them prior to filling.  The jars should be packed into a cardboard box with mouth down.  Although I have received plastic jars in a plastic bag probably because I don't buy many.  I would rather see someone set up a blow gun with filtered air to hit each container prior to filling then actually washing the container.  Washing and wiping out containers can actually bring in more contaminants then doing nothing.  I wouldn't vote for having the lids on either because that could easily cause condensation on the inside.  Moisture is what all living things need to grow.  Germs are everywhere.  They are harmless until they get access to moisture.  If the jar is dry prior to filling with honey there is no problem but if something had a chance to grow prior to filling that may not be the case.  It would not be for certain that it would be bad but it is not for certain that it would be good either.

I concur and add that honey is reputed to be anti-everything, so unless you have stored them in a really dirty place, the jars are almost certain to be clean.  As for having caps on, the caps I get with jars have a sealing thing inside that seals the jar when tightened down, so if you put the caps on the empty jar, you've ruined the seal

[BeeMaster2]

The jars that have the lids on are glass canning jars. The ones with the seals in the cap are plastic.
Jim

[Dallasbeek]

The jars that have the lids on are glass canning jars. The ones with the seals in the cap are plastic.
Jim

I don't use glass canning jars.  I use glass jars made for 1 or 2 pounds of honey.  They both have seals in the lids.  I guess there are other sizes as well - 1/2 pound, 5 pound, etc.

[Dallasbeek]

The one- quart Ball canning jars hold about 2 1/2 pound of honey.  Those are good with chunks of honey in them.

[Acebird]

so if you put the caps on the empty jar, you've ruined the seal

Only if the jar went through a canning process.  For honey you can reuse the lids a number of times.  No different than any metal honey cap.  It is the heat of the canning process that takes the elasticity out of the elastic seal on a canning lid.  I think the net weight of a quart of honey is closer to 2.7 pounds.  I write on my jars 2.6 pounds.

[Dallasbeek]

I'm referring to the thin tamper-proof plastic seal that comes inside lids for containers (glass or plastic) bought from Dadant or other suppliers.  It's like the tamper-proof seal on OTC vitamins and such.  It's not a vacuum seal like a canning lid.  Once you tighten the lid (plastic in my experience) onto the container, the seal is fixed to the container to show no one has removed any of the product or added anything to it.  I suppose it also prevents leakage in transit.

[Ben Framed]

An older topic but interesting. What are your thoughts on this?

[Lesgold]

New jars that I buy come wrapped in clear shrink plastic. The mouth of the jars are totally sealed and foreign matter can?t get into them. It?s a really good system. With that being said, I still visually check each jar before filling. With second hand jars I remove labels, wash off glue and give the jars a quick rinse. When the jars are basically clean, I wash them inside and out with hot water and some detergent. After that they are washed and basically sterilised in the dish washer. They come out really hot but dry quickly due to the heat. They are then sparkling and very clean. New lids are then usually added to the jar and they are stored sealed until they are required for use. I use those jars for door sales and family use.

[Terri Yaki]

An older topic but interesting. What are your thoughts on this?

I would because the effort/risk level is within my low standards.

[The15thMember]

If I used plastic jars/lids, I'd probably wash them after I purchased them, but for glass Ball jars with metal lids, I really don't see the need.  I do run used jars through the dishwasher (which is basically the home equivalent of an autoclave for sterilizing) and just let them air dry, since towel drying can actually introduce debris.  Lids I just wash in hot soapy water and towel dry. 

[Jim134]

    Home dishwasher Do not get hot enough. At least in Massachusetts.. The last rinse of water on the dishes or bottles.. Needs to be 185 F..  For 3 minutes.. And also has to have  1/2 ounce of a  Sanitize per load. To get the water this hot and stay this hot. You need a commercial hot water heater.. As well as a commercial dishwasher. No Home Dishwasher will do this. Believe me Plastic container will come out Deformed. Yes I used to bring my bottles to my brother's restaurant.. After hours To Wash honey bottles. Before this I used to use a church kitchen. At the church I belong to.

                BEE HAPPY  Jim134   

[The15thMember]

Sorry I should have said "sanitize", not "sterilize".  But 99% is good enough for me in this case. 

[BeeMaster2]

When it comes to cleaning jars and dishes for that matter, the most important thing is to remove all food or material and then get them dry. Soaps for the most part do not kill bacteria. When there is no material to keep the bacteria moist, the bacteria crystallize when it dries. This is what kills the bacteria. Not the actual washing of it.
Jim Altmiller

[William Bagwell]

Blowmolding operator in a baby products factory for ~five years. One of my duties was giving the inspector packers their breaks and lunches, this involved picking up four* bottles at once, placing them on a light table then putting them in a box if they passed inspection. Fastest machine made ~5,000 per shift and there were sometimes three running... The inspector packers wore gloves, I did not Estimate I had my grubby fingers inside well over a million baby bottles! So, washing things made in factories might be a good idea.

*Some folks could do six at a time, I never mastered that.

[Ben Framed]

Good point William! 

[max2]

We only sell honey in glass jars.
We used to hire a comercial kitchen in their off time and wash all jars in one of their dishwashing units.

The jars would come out too hot to touch and would dry very quickly.
As we do a few thousand jars a year now we had to make some chages.
The manufaturer assures us that the jars are :"clean' but not " sterile".
The do arrive here seal wrapped and are indeed clean - we use them as they arrive on a pallet. Each jar is checked before filling but I can't recall ever finding anything in a jar.
We give customers a dollar for each returned jar.
We soak them in dishwashing water, clean them inside and out and remove the labels and then rinse them with very hot water.
Lids generally need to be replaced.
Accepting jars back has resulted in a very loyal clientel.

[Ben Framed]

Thanks Max, the loyalty in return customer business is a good situation. How much do the same style jars that you are describing cost new in your country?

Phillip

[Lesgold]

I like Max?s loyalty scheme. Recycling is so important in the modern throw away world. It sits so well with the natural product that we are selling. Many customers have the same opinion. Packaging is becoming quite expensive in Australia. Small scale beekeepers aren?t given  the volume discounts that larger operators seem to get. I would be interested in hearing the price that Max pays for jars. I only buy small quantities and pay a premium for that. 500g Australian made hex jars cost me $1.00 but can be as cheap as 80 cents if I buy 1000. 1kg jars cost $1.60 each with discounts for larger purchases. I normally wait for some specials to appear before buying. On the topic of cleaning, I wonder how new jars are handled and or treated by large honey packing companies?

[max2]

Surprise...but we had some rain last night. Not much, 6.2mm and it is still drzzling and i use it as an excuse to do some office work.

A pallet of 1kg jars holds 1260 jars.
I pay just over a dollar per jar with lid

The 500g jars are about 10 cents cheaper.
BUT...I also have to pay $ 10 for each of the corflut inlais each - there are 7 in a stack and $ 50 for the pallet each.
I get the money back if i return them in good order
BUT , and here is the pain , as I'm in a rural area the transport costs me $ 330 for the load.
This means that - in round figures- a 1kg jar costs me $ AUS 1.40 each and the 500g jars cost me $ 1.30 each.( including lid)

These are flint jars. I'm told they are made in Australia from recycled materials. It is hard to believe that each lid costs me about 24cents!

Recycling in my area is very important as a selling point. Maleny used to be known as the "Coop town" . Many have now closed but the Food Coop in town is still the second biggest Coop in Australia.

Each year I go through my costs in detail and the costs keep creaping up.
I can't increase the sale price as I have a bloke who is selling his honey ( in a plastic tub) for $ 4 less then what we are selling the honey.

[Ben Framed]

Recycling in my area is very important as a selling point. Maleny used to be known as the "Coop town" . Many have now closed but the Food Coop in town is still the second biggest Coop in Australia.

Max please forgive my ignorance but wat is "Coop Town" is that an Australian term?

[The15thMember]

I think he's talking about a co-op, Phillip.  Like farmer's cooperative or something similar.   

[Ben Framed]

Thanks Reagan....

[Ben Framed]

Reagan I did a little investigating and found this! I think you and your Family will enjoy the read! I am doubtful the following is what Max is talking about. I think you are right there about a Coop Town in Australia, I feel sure Max will chime in when he gets a chance.. In the meantime check this out!


Totally The Bomb.com

"This Man Built His Wife a Mini Chicken Coop Town and
It is just like an old town square! There is a hotel, a cafe, a mercantile and more!
He even made them a saloon!"


https://totallythebomb.com/mini-chicken-coop-town