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Author Topic: Swarm in a building vent  (Read 6955 times)

Offline Qkrwogud

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Swarm in a building vent
« on: November 29, 2015, 06:15:00 pm »
This is where they were:


What we did:


It was in the evening in the shade after most of the bees returned. Dropped a few small pieces of banana(apparently they hate it), then attached this contraption so all bees trying to leave will get trapped. The box was lightly sprayed with sugar water and a few drops of lemon grass oil for luring was added to a single frame in the box. Meshed vents are added to the box, but there are no exits.

If I understand the swarming process, they move to a very close temporary location while scout bees looking for a more suitable place and move there to settle. Can you tell if the location is the first temporary one, or where they decided to try build a hive?

I was thinking if this was the location they decided to settle and start building, they wouldn't be likely to relocate of their own will, without physically transferring them like you can with more easily accessible ones.

This setup was done at about 5pm and it was shaded, very little bee activity as they all appear to have gone home. So today, the foraging bees will try and get out to find they are trapped. Then what? Would I not simply end up with a handful of bees that were trying to forage? I'm not trying to criticize or doubt the setup, but I'm trying to understand what would occur in this particular case that could result in 'capturing' the hive.

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2015, 11:44:42 am »
In the search box on the upper right side of the screen on the main page for this topiC, enter the word trapouts and click on search.  This will get you a list of entries on trapouts and how to do them.  There are lots of other resources on trapouts (You Tube, etc.) and Capt44 and Iddee on this forum will probably give you some links directly.

It appears to me that what you are trying is to quickly "trap" foragers as they leave the colony.  This won't solve the problem.  If you do a proper trapout, the bees will move into a new home of their own volition.  It will take time and you almost surely will not get the queen, but you will rid the structure of bees over time.  Good luck and welcome to the Beemasters forum.  Lots of good people here that can help you.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2015, 01:13:51 pm »
 Before I can help, I would have to know the location and how long they have been there. Put your location in your profile.We can't give the same advice for Michigan and Florida. Then there's Australia, where it's summer when we have winter.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2015, 03:49:14 pm »
I checked the next afternoon and what you said has happened Dallasbeek, just have a hand full of foraging bees trying to leave and getting trapped.
I was not familiar with the term trap out so I will need to take a look.
Not a huge deal if I don't get the queen but a good amount of the bees would be all I could ask for.

@iddee I've updated my profile but I'm in New Zealand, it is the first day of summer here. When I put the 'trap' in place it had only been a few hours since they moved in. It has probably been about 36 hours since they have been there now. Since they can't get out, how long would it take for them to die or be beyond recovery?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2015, 03:56:36 pm »
Spray the catch box with sugar water daily to feed them. Since they have no brood nor food, the queen and all bees should come out within a day or 3.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2015, 03:58:26 pm »
Read the links given in this forum and you will be able to trap any and all as they come available.


http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=20301.0
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2015, 04:03:55 pm »
Spray the catch box with sugar water daily to feed them. Since they have no brood nor food, the queen and all bees should come out within a day or 3.
I did spray the box when it was first set up. Can you extend on what you mean by they should all come out? Will they defiantly do this if they start to starve or what would cause them to do this?

Since if they come out, that is exactly what I'm wanting, but @dallasbeek implies this won't work?

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2015, 04:17:29 pm »
Spray the catch box with sugar water daily to feed them. Since they have no brood nor food, the queen and all bees should come out within a day or 3.
I did spray the box when it was first set up. Can you extend on what you mean by they should all come out? Will they defiantly do this if they start to starve or what would cause them to do this?

Since if they come out, that is exactly what I'm wanting, but @dallasbeek implies this won't work?

I said it won't work because it appears that you are trying to hold them in the box.  I may be wrong about that, of course.   What you want them to do is set up housekeeping in the box, get out and forage and make the box their home.  If they can get back and forth into the structure, the box is just a conduit to the colony.

Read the link Iddee has provided and everything else you can find on trapouts and follow Iddee's instruc tions and you will succeed.  I think what he was saying is you have to continue to provide food for the bees that are in the structure, since they haven't had time to build up stores.


"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2015, 04:22:18 pm »
I think you're going to have to provide some brood and nurse bees in your trap in order to anchor the foragers to their new hive (the trap box).  Otherwise, they'll drift off and join another hive or return to their old hive (foragers bearing nectar or pollen are welcome at any hive they go to). 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2015, 04:28:13 pm »
Right now, my 'trap' has no exits, they can't  forage at all.
@Dallasbeek - was not doubting you with my comment, was just trying to understand.

I'll have to do some reading into those articles(as I had not known the trap out term till now).
Any specific suggestions on my situation? I can go there to make changes if required.

Since they are completely trapped and can't forage, how long would it take for them to starve to death or do enough damage it isn't worth recovering?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2015, 04:41:54 pm »
They will abscond with no food or brood in the house. When they get to the catch box and can't get out, but there is food there, they will stay there and eat. If you want to provide an exit, cover it with an excluder so the queen cannot leave. Once they move out of the structure, you can take them home.

Dallas was assuming they were an established hive, with brood and stores. In that case, he is totally right. They act differently before they become established in a new home.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2015, 04:53:21 pm »
Iddee, wouldn't that queen be slimmed down and in flying form, so an excluder would be useless?

Actually, the round bucket or whatever he has covered the vent with looks like it would be pretty inviting to a swarm.  (just thinking)

I'll butt out at this point and leave it to you and maybe Capt44 and others with more experience to help this fellow.  Qkrwogud, you're in good hands now.  Good luck.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2015, 05:00:21 pm »
Dallas, she may have slimmed that much, or maybe not. It would be better than leaving it open. Remember, there are no guarantees in beekeeping. Don't go away. You are right on with what you are saying, not knowing at the time it was still in swarm mode and not an established hive, as most trapouts are. Hang in there with us. We may all learn something.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2015, 05:04:01 pm »
Yes Dallasbeek your input is still very much valued!
I'm planning to take another look at it, are you guys suggesting I put some more sugar water in the white box?
Or is there any adjustments you could suggest I make while I'm there?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2015, 05:07:12 pm »
MORE SUGAR??
How much is there now. I'm just saying, Don't let them run out. Keep enough in there for them to survive on.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2015, 05:11:08 pm »
About 40 hours ago when this was first put in place, we lightly sprayed the inside of the white nuc with sugar water and that's it.
From the angle I couldn't see fully into the nuc, but when I checked yesterday it didn't seem like they were going into it.
They will either have taken the small amount available, or not at all.

From the earlier conversation, it seemed it might be better to starve them a bit so they abscond into the nuc?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2015, 05:12:49 pm »
Feed the nuc, starve the structure.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2015, 05:14:24 pm »
My traps are made with a cone, so once they come out, they cannot go back in, so cannot carry the food to the structure.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Qkrwogud

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2015, 05:16:14 pm »
While the joint is narrow, they can probably still go back into the structure.
In this case shall I feed? I'm not sure I can feed nuc without also feeding the structure.
If I do feed, how much?

Offline iddee

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Re: Swarm in a building vent
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2015, 05:29:44 pm »
Either feed or give them an exit. No reason to let them starve. Can you install a cone over the structure exit?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTqFbiaD_js#ws




"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

 

anything