comb on top of the frames

[animal]

The bottom box only has 9 frames in a 10 frame deep box because for some reason, they didn't like one of the frames. They ignored it and built really thick comb on the frames on either side of it and pretty much filled the space inside the offensive frame. They kept sticking the offensive frame to one side or the other, making it difficult to get things apart, and they otherwise weren't building on it, so I
removed it.
The two super-thick frames have comb that looks normal on one side, but the sides facing each other are highly irregular in thickness. They do match each other nearly perfectly, though... where one is thick, the other is thin and the space between them is mostly uniform.

With them starting to get busy, I added a box (shallow, foundationless) 
So far, they haven't started building on it except to connect the two wonky frames to the bottom of the frames above them. .. and they're pretty insistent about it .. scrape it off, they build it back. Otherwise, all looks good.

The thick frames are a mix of brood and honey with the really thick parts honey, of course.

Been tempted to cut a few pieces of PVC sheet and lay it on top of the wonky frames to discourage them, but it seems like that might make things worse.

Should I just bite the bullet, pull them, cut out the honey, put the brood parts of the comb back in, and add the 10th frame?

Or do something else?

I have rechecked "bee space" and it seems right. They're only doing it in that one area. They are climbing over the new short frames, just not building on them yet.

[Ben Framed]

Did you take any pictures?

[The15thMember]

When I have bees who are persistent about fat honey comb I do one of two things.  1) I remove a frame, like you did, but the key to that working is you need to the space the frames in the box evenly to keep the situation from getting out of hand.  And I really wouldn't do this in the brood nest, because most of the frames won't be drawn fat, since there is little honey down there.  2) I just leave the mostly empty frame next to the fat one in place, and if they connect those two frames with weird comb, I just treat them as one unit.  I will draw a pencil line across the width of the two frames as a reminder to me that those two are connected.  I do this especially if the offending frames are up against the wall, and the situation isn't likely to get worse.  Then when it's convenient, I'll move those two messy frames up to a super so I can harvest it.  Since I do crush and strain, it'll then be out of my life.  Those weird combs can be a hassle in the brood nest so option 3 would be to just cut and paste it before it gets any worse.  As long as it's not creating a huge problem though, I personally find that avenue to be more work than it's worth, for both me and the bees.     

Is the super you added full of completely blank frames?  That could be the reason for the ladders.  The bees ability to move around that space is difficult, since there is nothing to walk on to get where they are trying to go, and bees almost never fly inside a hive, so they are just trying to make it more efficient to get where they are trying to go.  Once they get some comb drawn, they should stop rebuilding the ladders (although some colonies are more persistent about such construction than others).  Do be aware that a fully empty super like that needs to be monitored closely to make sure they don't decide to ignore the starter strips and just make the entire open space a maze of their own creation!  Don't hesitate to cut and paste if such a scenario arrives.  One well drawn frame should pretty well determine the fate of the others, so if you have any drawn shallows, I'd put them in the super, but I'm assuming you don't.   

[animal]

No, sorry .. It's kind of a pain to do pictures right now. I need to set up and sync a new phone to my laptop. Camera phones are toast and the laptop only has a forward facing camera. I'm in-between phones right now because I destroy them pretty regularly. 

They did the 2 thick frames last year before I realized what they were doing, but it didn't seem that important at the time; compared to them being weakened by a pesticide kill.I didn't want to disturb them too much while they were weak.

When I first opened them up this year, they had built a little wax from the same frames to the inner cover. I didn't think much of it at the time and scraped it off.

It looks like the additional space between the frames allows them to build the extra thick comb curved over the top bar of the frame. Then they connect it to what's above it.

.. also thought about stacking several PVC strips to fully fill the gap between the frames in the top box and the wonky frames. That way if they glue stuff together, one strip would be glued to the top of the wonky frames and a different one to the frames above .. so they would still seperate easily.

[animal]

Is the super you added full of completely blank frames?  That could be the reason for the ladders. ...

 One well drawn frame should pretty well determine the fate of the others, so if you have any drawn shallows, I'd put them in the super, but I'm assuming you don't.   

Yes, the super is completely full of frames. The "starter strip" is integral to the top bar in the form of it being cut to form a downward facing edge (as per a design from Michael Bush's website) They were also coated in beeswax and have bamboo skewers in them for support of comb.

How many frames should I have in the super?

I don't have any drawn shallow frames, but I do have some comb. Should I "start them off" by wiring some comb into a couple of frames?

[The15thMember]

How many frames should I have in the super?

When did they draw this fat comb?  My early spring flow is rarely strong enough to incite the bees to draw fat honeycomb, so unless your early flow is really on, I doubt it's a problem this time of year.  Also they may put brood in this first super depending on how strong they are, so I'd probably just put 10 in. 

I don't have any drawn shallow frames, but I do have some comb. Should I "start them off" by wiring some comb into a couple of frames?

You could.  Since I've got a store of drawn comb built up (and all my boxes are medium, so everything is interchangeable), I usually checkerboard a new super (drawn, blank, drawn, blank, etc.) if they are in a drawing mood.  That really helps to keep the wild comb to a minimum.  But you could also just check them regularly, like once a week, and be sure everything is straight and correct anything that isn't.  It just depends on what you'd rather do. 

[animal]

When did they draw this fat comb? ...  Also they may put brood in this first super depending on how strong they are, so I'd probably just put 10 in. 

Last year, sometimes before the second pesticide kill. I saw it when I was checking on them because of that. I had noticed that they had skipped one frame, but the comb looked normal on the other two for quite awhile. I guess I should have removed the "offensive frame" shoved things together before they got wonky and put the empty frame against the wall.

Brood in the bottom is what I would like to encourage. There's a lot of honey in it right now (comparatively speaking) because that's all they had after giving it to them after they were in a nuc box ... after their numbers were severely reduced  by the original hive getting poisoned/sprayed.

Thanks !

[Ben Framed]

I usually checkerboard a new super (drawn, blank, drawn, blank, etc.) if they are in a drawing mood.

That is a good practice. This also helps the bees draw straight comb when using fishing line, wire, or even skewers for comb support in open frames. The bees will sometime try and avoid incorporating the added wax comb into the support apparatus and try and go around, this can be easily fixed when caught in time.

[Ben Framed]

When I first started I watched a video put out by Don The Fat Bee Man. Each season Don would take out the wax comb from the frames after extraction, melt it down, reuse by embossing new foundation for the next season. I can see the merit in his program. It eliminates the need for checker boarding, also giving the bees a head start in the next Spring flow, while helping to ensure each frame is drawn out properly and straight., with less chance of wonky comb while giving good support. I don?t remember if he used wire in his frames for embedding the embossed foundation.

[animal]

There seems (to me, anyway) that there are good arguments for foundationless frames, but I don't really see the advantage when it comes to honey cells.

Are there people that do foundationless brood boxes in combination with frames with foundation in the supers ?

[cao]

As far as your wonky comb in brood box.  I would cut the extra wide comb off and place them on the outside two positions in the box with the fat side facing out.  You have a little extra room on the edge so you don't have to cut so much off.  Then add the tenth frame back into the mix.  The sooner you fix it the better.

As far as the super, the bees will only draw comb when they need it.  The bees may look like the need the extra space but remember that bees like to be crowded.  And they can fit a lot more into a box than you would think.

I use whatever I have (foundation(plastic or wax) or foundationless).  And in whatever combination necessary.  I have been going more to starter strips, but do still use solid foundation(mostly plastic now).  The one thing that I try to avoid is the situation that you are in right not.  An empty box sitting on top of the hive.  Everything may work out just fine but I try to put at least one frame, either drawn or foundation, in the middle to act as a ladder and a guide for the bees.  In your case, keep an eye on them and fix any wrong comb as soon as you see it.

Many people that are running 9 frames in honey supers will use plastic foundation.

[Ben Framed]

There seems (to me, anyway) that there are good arguments for foundationless frames, but I don't really see the advantage when it comes to honey cells.

Are there people that do foundationless brood boxes in combination with frames with foundation in the supers ?

It doesn't matter so much about foundation-less in the brood chambers. I started out using foundation-less in my deep honey supers as well. Still use it to a certain degree...  One advantage along with the other advantages mentioned earlier (wonky comb etc.), of having foundation in the honey supers is the comb will be stronger than freshly drawn white comb without support, which can sometimes fail when using deep supers, especially if there is no reinforcement and sitting in the hot summer sun, as the weight the of the honey can sometimes be to much for fresh, white comb which is not reinforced in deep boxes. Since you are using shallow honey supers you should not experience any problems, even if you do not use skewers, fishing line, or wire for reinforcement..... Shallow foundation-less should be just fine in your honey supers.... Plus you have the advantage of cutting it out for Comb Honey!! Yum!!

[beesnweeds]

Are there people that do foundationless brood boxes in combination with frames with foundation in the supers ?

I did and it worked fine.  Any foundationless frames I had I culled out years ago, I wont be going back to foundationless.  Im glad I did foundationless for awhile, a huge plus is watching bees festoon and build comb.  Its an excellent learning experience that prepares you for handling comb in cutouts, swarms, and general care of hives.  I took the same wood frames and installed plastic foundation and it didnt take long to see the advantages.  A lot more brood and less drones made the colonies larger and more productive.  Larger colonies, straighter more consistent comb makes for better much easier splits and making nucs.  I really had to hunt and pick foundationless frames that didnt touch each other when making up nucs, its a pain.  Too many frames became honey and drone comb.  I did enjoy foundationless and learned a lot but it just didnt work out for my long term goals.

[The15thMember]

Are there people that do foundationless brood boxes in combination with frames with foundation in the supers ?

I do all foundationless mostly because with all mediums and no extractor, I don't need extra support and I don't see the need for the added expense of foundation.  When the flow is really on, the bees draw fast with or without it, and once you build up a good supply of drawn comb, you can give them that, which is ultimately the fastest.     

[Terri Yaki]

I do all foundationless mostly because with all mediums and no extractor, I don't need extra support and I don't see the need for the added expense of foundation.  When the flow is really on, the bees draw fast with or without it, and once you build up a good supply of drawn comb, you can give them that, which is ultimately the fastest.     

What do you do, just scratch it open and let it drain?

[animal]

Terri, that sounded nasty, and reminded me of a really bad joke

[The15thMember]

What do you do, just scratch it open and let it drain?

No, that would take forever.  I do crush and strain.  So I cut the comb out of the frame, crush it up with a potato masher to open up all the cells, and then strain the whole mess through a mesh honey strainer.  Then I use the wax for making candles, salves, lotion, etc.     

[Terri Yaki]

What do you do, just scratch it open and let it drain?

No, that would take forever.  I do crush and strain.  So I cut the comb out of the frame, crush it up with a potato masher to open up all the cells, and then strain the whole mess through a mesh honey strainer.  Then I use the wax for making candles, salves, lotion, etc.     

Ok, so they make new comb and start over. Do you have that process written up in thread around here? I'd like to lean about it. Do you save any of it for comb honey and just gnaw on a hunk now and then? Kind a different way to crush and strain.

[The15thMember]

Do you save any of it for comb honey and just gnaw on a hunk now and then? Kind a different way to crush and strain.

  Haha, yes, all the time!  You can actually eat the beeswax too, so if it's really nice thin-drawn comb honey, there isn't even straining involved.   

Ok, so they make new comb and start over. Do you have that process written up in thread around here? I'd like to lean about it.

I don't think so, but honestly I was thinking about making an instructional post about it for the School of Traditional Skills whenever I did my first round this year, because the instructor on there didn't cover it, and most people don't want to spend the money on a extractor up front.  So I'll post that on here too.  I usually do my first harvest sometime in June.     

[Ben Framed]

A unique way to extract honey without an extractor as taught to me by Don The Fat-bee-man..

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=52958.msg475974#msg475974