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Author Topic: Las Vagas  (Read 1871 times)

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Las Vagas
« on: October 02, 2017, 09:55:14 am »
There may be a couple buildings in my town that are 3 stories, probably some barns. But nothing that would give the elevation advantage for a mass shooting event such as the one in Vagas. I do not live in a city. I do not want to live in a city. I have never experienced an event like what happened in Vagas. I don't even like things like the fair because of the number of people. The problem is that high population densities become targets. Weather we like it or not. I am the first to say that terrorists win when we are terrorized. The solution therefor is not to fear terrorists. It is a whole lot easier for me in the country not to let terrorists terrorize me than it would be if I lived in the city.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Online cidersabuzzin

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2017, 10:51:32 am »
There may be a couple buildings in my town that are 3 stories, probably some barns. But nothing that would give the elevation advantage for a mass shooting event such as the one in Vagas. I do not live in a city. I do not want to live in a city. I have never experienced an event like what happened in Vagas. I don't even like things like the fair because of the number of people. The problem is that high population densities become targets. Weather we like it or not. I am the first to say that terrorists win when we are terrorized. The solution therefor is not to fear terrorists. It is a whole lot easier for me in the country not to let terrorists terrorize me than it would be if I lived in the city.

50 Killed, 200 injured..................undoubtedly someone from the NRA will be along to say "a CC gun owner would have been able to stop him" it took Police with explosives to get into the hotel room to get to him. Having said that, what a tragic event, its a sad world.
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2017, 10:59:56 am »
undoubtedly someone from the NRA will be along to say "a CC gun owner would have been able to stop him" it took Police with explosives to get into the hotel room to get to him.
cider   
probably not,.  They will respond to the facts.

Let us all make our meditations and/or prayers for the people affected by this madman.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 12:05:53 pm »
50 Killed, 200 injured..................undoubtedly someone from the NRA will be along to say "a CC gun owner would have been able to stop him" it took Police with explosives to get into the hotel room to get to him. Having said that, what a tragic event, its a sad world.
cider   

This was clearly a well planned attack. Short of somebody seeing him in the hotel and recognizing the weapons he had in his baggage, not an easy thing to do, there was no way to prevent this. I don't believe that gun control would have prevented it just like I don't believe it could have been prevented if everybody was carrying a gun. I doubt the NRA will say anything until the inevitable legislation proposals to prevent law abiding citizens from owning guns.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2017, 03:02:50 pm »
I just heard a recording of the gunfire of some of the shooting. It is full automatic gunfire. Not a gun that you can buy legally without a federal permit.
I would not be surprised if some day we find out he did this for an anti gun group.

If the media would stop announcing the killers name a lot of the crazies would stop doing this. A lot of this is done so that everyone will know his name forever.
Jim
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2017, 03:26:10 pm »
Quote
I just heard a recording of the gunfire of some of the shooting. It is full automatic gunfire.

Yup.  It's illegal to murder people and illegal to have those weapons.  How many more laws would it take to prevent this?  Our problem is societal and universal.  People who want to commit mass murder use bombs, trucks, and yes, guns.  If this is their goal, they will do it.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2017, 04:53:04 pm »
The clip I saw sounded like full auto as Jim said and it sounded like more than 30 rounds.  I'm guessing belt fed?  A full auto belt fed gun is not readily available without a full FBI background check and a tax stamp or it would require finding someone to sell it illegally or someone would have to do some machine work to change it to full auto... 
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2017, 05:06:31 pm »
Quote
I'm guessing belt fed? 

I don't think so.  2.5 seconds to drop a mag and slam another in. Depending on weapon he could tape them and flip them quickly.    In one of those video clips there were pauses.  + multiple weapons reported so if all were ready to go, no aiming required, not much pause needed to keep shooting.

Def full auto though and that's not something easy to come by.   Possible to do yourself with some knowledge depending on the weapon...  Finally the press got it right though....the broken clock wins.

It will be interesting to see the weapons report. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Geoff

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2017, 07:26:11 pm »


      I am not religious but why cannot some being bring about governance to prevent a supposedly ordinary citizen to be in possession of a truckload of heavy automatic weapons. Carrying of small arms I agree with but where is the slack that allows a nutter loose in Vegas ?
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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2017, 07:52:22 pm »
Geoff, a normal man can do very abnormal things when mind altering drugs are introduced.

""In a series of bizarre tweets, actress Kirstie Alley suggested American's "mass usage of psychiatric drugs" is a "common denominator in shooters." ""

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/10/02/scientologist-kirstie-alley-psychiatric-drugs-common-denominator-in-mass-shooters.html

Allowing a normal person to buy guns is on the same level of letting them buy cars. They both can be used for good or bad. Add mind altering drugs and it is mostly bad. It's the fault of neither the car nor gun, nor the laws allowing them.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2017, 08:39:40 pm »
I just wish these nuts/terrorist would get it right for once. Shoot your self in the head first then you shoot the other  people.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2017, 09:14:37 pm »
I just wish these nuts/terrorist would get it right for once. Shoot your self in the head first then you shoot the other  people.
Jim
That would be cool... Not likely to happen but we can hope for the best.

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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Fishing-Nut

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2017, 11:54:29 pm »
Very sad situation. Prayers from here.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 09:18:25 am »
Possible to do yourself with some knowledge depending on the weapon...

50 dollar kit to change the gun to an automatic.  The controls need to be at the selling end or better yet the manufacturing end where it starts.  I am sorry about hippa but if someone is prescribed drugs for mental illness they should not be allowed to have weapons of any kind.  If someone were incarcerated for using illegal drugs they should not be allowed to have weapons of any kind.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 12:47:50 pm »
Possible to do yourself with some knowledge depending on the weapon...

50 dollar kit to change the gun to an automatic.  The controls need to be at the selling end or better yet the manufacturing end where it starts.  I am sorry about hippa but if someone is prescribed drugs for mental illness they should not be allowed to have weapons of any kind.  If someone were incarcerated for using illegal drugs they should not be allowed to have weapons of any kind.

Hummm...
Amendment V.
No person shall... ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.

Perhaps you should read the constitution. While you may have a valid point, you seem to be a bit willing to skip the step of a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury of peers. Who decides if somebody is mentally ill? Also, there are those of us who believe that illegal drugs should be legal even if we think they are harmful and do not use them ourselves. Consider that Pot is illegal because Nixon wanted to stifle opposition and he figured that picturing them as druggies would discredit him he had a study done that "proved" pot killed brain cells but the way the study was conducted it asphyxiated monkeys for 5 minutes a day while they were smoking pot. Show me somebody who asphyxiates them self while they smoke pot.

I don't remember who said it... Sawdust I think something about the media response. He was right... if the media would stop glorifying events like this it would help. It isn't just this however, any terrorist attack gets the same press coverage. If it bleeds it leads. That needs to change.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Acebird

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 01:44:54 pm »

Amendment V.
No person shall... ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.


It is assumed that if you are incarcerated you got your due process of law.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 02:10:07 pm »
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Who decides if somebody is mentally ill?

While I agree with your post, this bit needs some work.  Consider the CT school shooter.  His mother had tried to get him help and could find none.  The VA college shooter was known to be mentally ill, but was able to legally purchase a weapon and in part because there is no way for a mental health expert to do much of anything even if they have a legit concern.

We have several problems with the mental health system.  Among them, we have no place to lock these people up.  We turned them loose and tried to manage them in the community and it's not working.  It takes an act of God to get someone committed long term to an institution of any kind, and HIPPA does restrict reporting....although, interestingly, not the reporting of suspected child abuse. 

I am generally in favor of punishing bad behaviors rather than use, but as long as we are going to have nuts wandering free, we need to be able to sift them for safety.  It's not just guns.  We had a guy here bash someone with a hammer in a hardware store.  He was known in the community to be mentally ill and even threatening, but nothing could be done with him until he caused brain damage in a random shopper.    There is some risk in this, but....
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 05:30:53 pm »
I am not saying there is much of a difference to the victim if they get killed with a hammer or a gun but the fact is you cannot kill or injure 500+ people @400 yards with a hammer.  Neither does carrying a weapon help you much at that distance.  We can say all we want that a terrorist is not going to change how we live our lives but we are not be honest with ourselves.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 05:38:05 pm »
The VA college shooter was known to be mentally ill, but was able to legally purchase a weapon and in part because there is no way for a mental health expert to do much of anything even if they have a legit concern.
This is my beef.  The NRA and people that are so wound up on the second amendment have some responsibility for this.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Las Vagas
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 06:22:08 pm »
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The NRA and people that are so wound up on the second amendment have some responsibility for this.

The NRA has nothing to do with it.  They are on record as wanting to be able to weed out those with serious mental illness.  What they and the ACLU objected to was the Obama plan to take weapons from seniors and vets who had no demonstrated mental illness, but had someone else managing their money.  Lots of older people have someone manage their money for lots of reasons.  Travel, convenience, etc.  It was a stupid proposal that had nothing to do with screening out mental illness and weapons ownership.

This was the problem
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20151016/nra-applauds-us-rep-mcsallys-introduction-of-mental-health-bill

This is their position on it
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20130124/mental-health-and-firearms

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville