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Offline kathyp

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The Feds and disasters
« on: September 18, 2017, 10:07:47 pm »
you might guess that I would have a problem with federal programs in general and you'd be right.  Federal disaster response is starting to make me nuts.  There was a time when states were expected to care for their own and the feds stayed in their constitutional box.  During the "dust bowl" episode, we saw the first major response from the federal government to a disaster.  Prior to that there had been some programs and some money spent, but that period of time saw a massive expansion of federal "help".  The depression was also the beginning of the food stamp program both as a way to help farmers with any surplus they had, and to feed those in need.  That program was at least limited and expired.

I won't go through every disaster, but FF to 2005 and Katrina.  Prior to Katrina FEMA was a small federal office of about 2800 people.  They had a few jobs and they did them pretty well.  They facilitated the movement of disaster aid between states by cutting red tape, etc.  They helped make some loans to small businesses after disasters.  They helped states with disaster planning.  The main job of disaster planning and plan execution fell to the states and FEMA was not/is not a first responder agency.  FEMA should not be an aid agency.  why are they passing out ice?

Then there is Congress.  They are happy to write billions of dollars in (bad) checks to cover disasters.  What, exactly, are they paying for?  The federal government, by law, has few state responsibilities.   The most expanded legal room you can give them is to say they have some responsibility to help facilitate the return of commerce.  That might include bridges and roads, but it doesn't include payments to people so they can replace their refrigerator.

Ever.single.federal program suffers from creep.  A little help turns into taking over and running things and billions of dollars of tax money spent.  Should they be doing it at all, and if you think they should be, what is enough?  When do we decide that many billions of taxpayer dollars ought not to be going to every disaster, every time.

We just went over 20 trillion in national debt.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline herbhome

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2017, 01:01:20 am »
Nothing has the will to live like a government program. :smile:
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2017, 03:16:49 am »
The FED could propose country-wide standards ? distance from coastlines and levees, heights above sea level and 100 year flood contour lines, building strengths in high wind prone areas, etc. ? and not meeting those, offer no aid.  These will not be the last `storms of a century` during this century.  In general, the Fed ought to be out of the storm insurance for the wealthy business.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2017, 08:49:27 am »
When do we decide that many billions of taxpayer dollars ought not to be going to every disaster, every time.

When the military gets out of every country that is not ours and takes care of its own people.  Talk about creep...
In the interest of what makes America great is how well it treats its own people in times of need.  By far the biggest waste in government programs is the military.  If you are not up and ARMS about that you have no beef.

I hope everyone is watching the PBS program on the Vietnam War.  We have three or four of them going right now and another soon to start.  Although we think we are great the United States has NEVER accomplished a win on its own except ego.

Kathy, you want the east, west and south coast to bear the brunt of backing out of the CO2 pact on their own?  Maybe we can change the name of the country to the Un-United States while we are at it.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 09:03:13 am »
The FED could propose country-wide standards ? distance from coastlines and levees, heights above sea level and 100 year flood contour lines, building strengths in high wind prone areas, etc. ? and not meeting those, offer no aid.  These will not be the last `storms of a century` during this century.  In general, the Fed ought to be out of the storm insurance for the wealthy business.

I have been suggesting retention lakes and pipelines to areas that grow our food.  This would give the army something useful to do.  We built dams and such with manual labor.  Today we have machines.  Should be a piece of cake.  Here is the thing, ALL would benefit.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2017, 12:39:19 pm »
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The FED could propose country-wide standards ? distance from coastlines and levees,

To some extent they do.  I have a piece of land on a river.  The high land is closest to the river.  The land most apt to flood is away from the rivre.  Guess where FEMA thinks I should build?  As for the rest of it, think of where commerce happens.  People need to live where they work.  It might have been a good idea back in the day not to have NO build below the level of the water, but....

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When the military gets out of every country that is not ours and takes care of its own people.  Talk about creep...
In the interest of what makes America great is how well it treats its own people in times of need.  By far the biggest waste in government programs is the military.  If you are not up and ARMS about that you have no beef.

I hope everyone is watching the PBS program on the Vietnam War.  We have three or four of them going right now and another soon to start.  Although we think we are great the United States has NEVER accomplished a win on its own except ego.

Kathy, you want the east, west and south coast to bear the brunt of backing out of the CO2 pact on their own?  Maybe we can change the name of the country to the Un-United States while we are at it.

My argument on this is from a constitutional/legal point.  Feelings are for charities. 
The defense of the nation is constitutional.  You and I may not like some of the things they have gotten into, but there is no constitutional argument for doing away with them. 

There is equally no constitutional argument for draining the federal coffers to "help people".  People do need help, but it is not the job of the feds to give it.  What makes America great is that we have a document that is the law of the land and guarantees equal treatment.  I understand that we routinely ignore it in our tax code, etc. but how far are we willing to allow the federal creep to go.

FEMA went from a small organizing agency to one that now passes out aid on the ground and dictates where I can and can't build.  At what point is their help turned into a dictatorship?

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Kathy, you want the east, west and south coast to bear the brunt of backing out of the CO2 pact on their own?  Maybe we can change the name of the country to the Un-United States while we are at it.

Sorry, don't know what you are on about with this part. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 01:44:24 pm »
but there is no constitutional argument for doing away with them. 
There is a constitutional argument for doing away with what the military is doing.

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People do need help, but it is not the job of the feds to give it.
I totally disagree. 
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What makes America great is that we have a document that is the law of the land and guarantees equal treatment.
  The document means nothing.  It is just an agreement that is either ignored or followed.
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At what point is their help turned into a dictatorship?
When the law of the land becomes executive orders that are contrary to the majority of its citizens.  Then you have a dictator.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 02:04:03 pm »
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There is a constitutional argument for doing away with what the military is doing.

What is it?

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I totally disagree.

what is the constitutional authority for the feds to pass out billions of tax dollars in disaster aid?

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The document means nothing.  It is just an agreement that is either ignored or followed.

It is the law of the land, although I would agree with you that it means nothing if it is not followed.

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When the law of the land becomes executive orders that are contrary to the majority of its citizens.  Then you have a dictator.

Often my point when Obama was doing it.  That said, not all executive orders are outside the law, but they are easy for the next president to do away with.  That's why if you want something, you get it by way of Congress and legislation, not your phone and pen. 

Decisions in this country are not made by the majority.  They have never been, neither should they be.  This makes the law even more important because it controls majority (mob) rule. 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2017, 04:55:21 pm »
What is it?
Entering into and creating wars that are not approved by the congress.

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what is the constitutional authority for the feds to pass out billions of tax dollars in disaster aid?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administration_of_federal_assistance_in_the_United_States

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Often my point when Obama was doing it.

For the most part Obama was doing what the majority of the citizens wanted.
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That's why if you want something, you get it by way of Congress and legislation

In many cases this is the right way to make laws.  Obama care is a law written and approved by congress.  There are times when congress does not react fast enough.  If it were left up to Congress to get us out of the last depression we would all (99%) be eating bark right now.
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Decisions in this country are not made by the majority.
I disagree.  For the most part they are and they should be.  Sometimes not though because the population can be selfish at times and not educated enough to make the right decision.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 05:01:51 pm »
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Entering into and creating wars that are not approved by the congress.

Which ones?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administration_of_federal_assistance_in_the_United_States

This is something they did, but by what constitutional authority?  Some of these things are done legislatively and the legislature has latitude in making laws, but only within the constitution.  Most of the alphabet agencies are formed to get around the constitution and oversight.  If they were judged against the constitution, the would be illegal.     

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For the most part Obama was doing what the majority of the citizens wanted.

Even if that was true, no president has the right to do as he wishes, or even as the people wish, outside the law.  That is the whole point in having laws the control the power of the government. 

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In many cases this is the right way to make laws.  Obama care is a law written and approved by congress.  There are times when congress does not react fast enough.  If it were left up to Congress to get us out of the last depression we would all (99%) be eating bark right now.

This is the only legal way to make laws.  Obama care was passed by congress and that was the main reason the SCOTUS upheld it and told congress to fix it if they didn't like it.  As for the depression, this paper says you are wrong.  If you don't want to access the pdf, there is a synopsis.
http://hlcole.bol.ucla.edu/NewDealucla.pdf

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409

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I disagree.  For the most part they are and they should be.  Sometimes not though because the population can be selfish at times and not educated enough to make the right decision.

No and we have had this discussion before.  We do not have majority rule.  We don't have it for the very reasons you state.  People can make stupid decisions when they move as a herd.  We have a representative government so that the process of law making CAN be slowed down and examined.  Democracy is the worst form of government...which is probably why the far left is always screaming the praises of it......

What you advocate for is something like Paris after the French revolution.  It took a dictatorship to bring sanity back to the country. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline jvalentour

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 05:25:39 pm »
A lot of the mission creep for FEMA could be the criticism presidents would receive from the media.  Doesn't matter who is in the WH, the media will roast a poor response to a disaster.

Offline Acebird

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 05:30:36 pm »
Which ones?
All of them.  Even ww2
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That is the whole point in having laws the control the power of the government. 
You have heard the expression laws were meant to be broken.
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We have a representative government so that the process of law making CAN be slowed down and examined. 
Sure it is slowed down but it is passed by a majority.  Representatives yes but hopefully the representatives will vote the will of the people.  And I realize that doesn't always happen because they are members of the swamp.
One thing I can absolutely assure you though if it was purely majority rule is that the representatives would be on all the same benefits and laws that the people are on.  That is where the majority gets out voted.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 06:23:26 pm »
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One thing I can absolutely assure you though if it was purely majority rule is that the representatives would be on all the same benefits and laws that the people are on.  That is where the majority gets out voted.

I don't disagree with you on this.  Laws passed that impact the people should be universally applied.  ACA would not have passed without special considerations given to Congress and their staff.
They are not required to vote as the people want.  They are required to represent the best interests of the people under the constitution.  That's not always going to be what the mob might want.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 10:01:11 pm »




Kathy, you want the east, west and south coast to bear the brunt of backing out of the CO2 pact on their own?  Maybe we can change the name of the country to the Un-United States while we are at it.
Carbon dioxide does not cause hurricanes. At this point, the size of a hurricane doesn't matter much, the coast line is so built up that a small storm will cause a lot of damage in repair costs. It bothers me that people want to blame the damage costs on  climate change with no consideration for the how much more there is to be destroyed now than before. If a tree gets blown down in the everglades and the only witness is a gator does anyone care? Probably not, but if it lands on a house, someone will care. If you live in a hurricane zone don't think that you will never have a hurricane.

My wife grew up on Long Island. When we visit her family we usually go to the beach in the Hampton's. The number of million dollar homes on Dune road with nothing but 50 to 100 feet of beach between them and the ocean is crazy. Sooner or later they will get wiped out by a hurricane. My wife said when she was a kid there were only about half a dozen. Now there's probably 50 or more. Why should poor people living in areas that are not prone to hurricanes subsidize repair risks for stupid rich people that build homes where eventually they will get wiped out?

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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 10:25:01 pm »
Ace,
Just out of ceriosity, have you read the Constitution? Article I Section 8 defines what Congress can do. Anything not listed, they can't. The list is not that long.

I agree that our militart interventions are rediculus. I don't believe we have the "well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state" as called for in the second amendment. We have an imperialistic military. I blame this on Congress. But I also think if we don't learn from the past history will repeat itself. The idea of North Korea having a nuke with a delivery system in itself doesn't bother me much. What bothers me is that the dictator of North Korea is psycho and he seems to be close to nuke capabilities. Hitler was able to take over Europe because everyone sat idly by as he built up his military. I see Kim as crazier and not caring much if his country is destroyed.

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Offline kathyp

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2017, 01:09:52 am »
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I see Kim as crazier and not caring much if his country is destroyed.

He is that.  We should also keep in mind that we have another crazy regime in Iran that may already have nukes or is close. 

If one were a conspiracy theorist, one might wonder about the fact that both China and Russia have client states that are crazy and have nukes.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2017, 06:08:16 am »
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I see Kim as crazier and not caring much if his country is destroyed.

He is that.  We should also keep in mind that we have another crazy regime in Iran that may already have nukes or is close. 

If one were a conspiracy theorist, one might wonder about the fact that both China and Russia have client states that are crazy and have nukes.
I can't deny that but this goes back to our overseas interventions. We overthrew Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh and installed the Shah.

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Offline Acebird

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2017, 08:21:43 am »
What bothers me is that the dictator of North Korea is psycho and he seems to be close to nuke capabilities.

What bothers me is that we have a president that is psycho and we do have nukes, many of them.  He also has the same agenda as Hitler, a country of white people who in his mind are supreme to all others.  If you want to learn something from history learn that Hitler got his power from people that supported him not from a lack of people that opposed him.  Watch history repeat itself, it always does.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2017, 08:33:48 am »

At this point, the size of a hurricane doesn't matter much, the coast line is so built up that a small storm will cause a lot of damage in repair costs.

Really?  There was more damage in Jacksonville when the eye of the hurricane was in Orlando.  Jim, is your property 50 ft off the beach?  Are you expecting donations or aid from the federal government any time soon?
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Offline Psparr

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2017, 10:21:31 am »
What bothers me is that the dictator of North Korea is psycho and he seems to be close to nuke capabilities.

What bothers me is that we have a president that is psycho and we do have nukes, many of them.  He also has the same agenda as Hitler, a country of white people who in his mind are supreme to all others.  If you want to learn something from history learn that Hitler got his power from people that supported him not from a lack of people that opposed him.  Watch history repeat itself, it always does.
That's just sad. Your "reality" is so skewed by your ideology that I'm worried about your mental health.
You think our president psycho? . . .