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Author Topic: The way it should be. Dam* the gov  (Read 1064 times)

Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2017, 09:16:04 am »
Ace, prove that what I paid in plus the matching would be less than I draw, after it being invested at a reasonable return all those years, and I'll return the difference.

I needed time to find the data...

Looking at my SSI statement I have been taxed a little over 100K so far.  Assuming we were in the same tax bracket you must be less because you are about 8 years older than me but that really doesn't matter because the scale is not even close.  I would say based on you reveling that you just had your 11th stent put in that you burned up what you paid in taxes in the first couple of years of drawing SSI and Medicare.  Practically everyone in your age group has drawn more than they put in.  That is pretty much black and white and easy to prove.  Now add to the fact that it takes a lot of government employees to keep track and send me statements every year or so.  What do you think the costs would be for that and in your case paying your medical bills and sending you checks?
Now supposing we were forced to put that same money into a retirement account that could not be touched until retirement or death.  You would burn through what was saved in maybe five years of retirement and then be penniless.  Then there is the problem of funding the military because those taxes would be lost to the Treasury pot.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2017, 12:48:29 pm »
>So Does that mean you will not collect SSI because in your words it is stealing?

I've been filing income tax and paying into SS since I was 13... I think they should give some of it back eventually.  That was in 1960s dollars...  candy bars were a nickle and a root beer at the local Rexall Drug store was also a nickel.  Minimum wage was $1.16 an hour.  That's about $9 an hour in 2017 dollars.  I just looked at my up to date statement and so far I've paid in $140,000 into SS and my employers (who, of course, allowed for this when they hired me, so actually *I* earned this as well) paid in $112,000 for a total of $252,000 so they should pay me back (adjusted for inflation) $2,268,000.00.  That's not allowing for interest since they used my money for all those years.... but I suppose not all of that was earned when a nickel would buy a candy bar, so let's just say $2 million.  Yes, they stole it and spent it.  Maybe they will give some of it back.
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Offline gww

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2017, 02:12:27 pm »
To micheals point, My question would be, if $9 an our would equal min wage and lets say you made $20 an hour for many of those years, do you now have your two million above and beyond the two million that the gov has of yours?  If you made double, it should have been easy to get the second two million.  Even if you do have the second two million, most did not when left on their own.  You could say that that is their fault but it was so maby peoples fault before ssi that ssi has been a real bennifit for americans since it was started.  It was not only a bennifit to those recieving it but also to those who were working making the things that those recieving it bought.

I have not been to a lot of countries but the one I have been to and what I see of the others, even with the wrongs, american living standard is very nice and part of that is due to things like ssi.  And that is the reciever and the worker.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2017, 02:28:21 pm »
I've been filing income tax and paying into SS since I was 13... I think they should give some of it back eventually.
They will if you choose to draw from it.  There are two things that are not being grasped here.  All of your money has been spent on another generation there is no account with money in it.  Secondly you can not call SSI and Medicare a financial investment it is a loss it always will be.  If you were to put the same amount of money in the bank that you contributed to SSI the value would be less today because no bank pays in interest equal to or greater than inflation.  There is always a net loss.  Can't be any other way unless you risk the principal.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 04:48:54 pm by Acebird »
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2017, 02:36:12 pm »
Brian,
I agree, it will be less than inflation but it will be millions more than I will ever get back from the fed and the remainder would go to whoever I decide.
Jim
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2017, 05:20:31 pm »
Brian,
I agree, it will be less than inflation but it will be millions more than I will ever get back from the fed ...
This part depends on when you choose to draw and how long you live after that.  The way it has been going for most people if you take retirement at retirement age you will live long enough to draw way more than you put in.  If it were not that way then there would be no concern for SSI drying up ever.  As Michael said your employer put in as much as you do.  If you were just putting money equal to what the government takes into a bank account your retirement fund would dry up a lot sooner because there would be no employer contribution.
Modern medicine has caused the financial problem.  When SSI was drawn up people lived 1-2 years past retirement, some maybe 5 years.  Today it is more like 20 or 25 years past retirement age.  If your carrier was military you will live longer in retirement then you will have been employed, assuming you got to retire.  These are financial nightmares for the young people supporting the old.
Eventually you are going see retirement age go into the 70's or more.  I think this will happen pretty quick.  I also see in the future where assisted end of life will become more popular.  Only the well to do will spend 5-10 years in a nursing home.
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Online iddee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2017, 05:39:38 pm »
You are also forgetting the death and disability benefits. My brother in law had polio and never worked a day in his life. He still drew off his father's account for over 50 years.

My sister
's first husband died in a car wreck when her daughter was 2. She drew a check from his SS until her daughter was 18, then 4 more years until she finished school. "college"

SSI.... Social Security INSURANCE, the key word being insurance.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2017, 05:57:10 pm »
I am aware of survivors benefits.  My brother draws because his wife died of cancer.  Because it is all one big pot I don't see what difference it would make if it came from welfare.  I would guess that this is a very small draw on the system.  It is when the majority of people live a lot longer in retirement then they ever did before that the system is heading for a crash.
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Offline Psparr

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2017, 06:12:39 pm »
It's a giant Ponzi scheme. One we would be sitting in jail for had it been our idea.

Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2017, 09:10:59 pm »
It's a giant Ponzi scheme.

It kinda is and it is driven by old farts that are not contributing anymore.  Maybe you should not be allowed to vote when you reach retirement age.  How do you think that will change things.  I am all for setting an age limit on holding office.  68 sounds like a good number.  When you reach 68 you can't run for office anymore.  That aught to get rid of a lot of dead wood.
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Offline gww

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2017, 10:51:34 pm »
The uaw made 65 the threshold where you had to retire and air plane pilots was some where in that age group where they were forced to retire.
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2017, 12:20:42 am »
I believe iddee has said it twice now - SSI has that I in it - Insurance, which makes it NOT a Ponzi scheme, but rather an insurance program.

It's a giant Ponzi scheme. One we would be sitting in jail for had it been our idea.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2017, 08:43:07 am »
I believe iddee has said it twice now - SSI has that I in it - Insurance, which makes it NOT a Ponzi scheme, but rather an insurance program.

We all know that it was set up as insurance but there is two things different.  The "Terms of the Policy" can change after you sign up and your premium does not go to you it goes to someone else.  Actually there might be a third you have to die to collect.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2017, 03:15:09 pm »
>So Does that mean you will not collect SSI because in your words it is stealing?

I've been filing income tax and paying into SS since I was 13... I think they should give some of it back eventually.  That was in 1960s dollars...  candy bars were a nickle and a root beer at the local Rexall Drug store was also a nickel.  Minimum wage was $1.16 an hour.  That's about $9 an hour in 2017 dollars.  I just looked at my up to date statement and so far I've paid in $140,000 into SS and my employers (who, of course, allowed for this when they hired me, so actually *I* earned this as well) paid in $112,000 for a total of $252,000 so they should pay me back (adjusted for inflation) $2,268,000.00.  That's not allowing for interest since they used my money for all those years.... but I suppose not all of that was earned when a nickel would buy a candy bar, so let's just say $2 million.  Yes, they stole it and spent it.  Maybe they will give some of it back.
Don't count on getting much of it back.
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Offline eltalia

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2017, 06:37:53 am »
"Don't count on getting much of it back. "

That tbere is just outright cruel, Eric... shame on you ;-(

Bill

Offline beecanbee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2017, 04:53:37 am »
I believe iddee has said it twice now - SSI has that I in it - Insurance, which makes it NOT a Ponzi scheme, but rather an insurance program.

We all know that it was set up as insurance but there is two things different.  The "Terms of the Policy" can change after you sign up and your premium does not go to you it goes to someone else.  Actually there might be a third you have to die to collect.

Now now... you know that nobody reads the fine print... they just pretend to.  And with all insurance - your premiums are never set aside for you - but go into that big pool to be paid out to those who hit the jackpot with their accident, illness, misfortune, etc.  Not one iota of difference - except being mandatory as part payment for living in a civil society.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

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Offline Acebird

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2017, 08:42:03 am »
And with all insurance - your premiums are never set aside for you -
Careful with the word "all" and "never".  You can use insurance as a tax free bank account.  Let's say your policy costs 10 dollars for life insurance.  You can put in 15 and that will accumulate with interest.  The interest is not taxed until you draw.  It is like an IRA.  The insurance has advantages over the IRA with one exception.  An IRA in a bank is insured.  The money in the insurance company is not.  Kind of ironic.
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2017, 09:13:04 pm »
And with all insurance - your premiums are never set aside for you -
Careful with the word "all" and "never".  You can use insurance as a tax free bank account.  Let's say your policy costs 10 dollars for life insurance.  You can put in 15 and that will accumulate with interest.  The interest is not taxed until you draw.  It is like an IRA.  The insurance has advantages over the IRA with one exception.  An IRA in a bank is insured.  The money in the insurance company is not.  Kind of ironic.

Thanks... i have been learned!
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

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(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2017, 05:50:03 am »
"Don't count on getting much of it back. "

That tbere is just outright cruel, Eric... shame on you ;-(

Bill
Not meant to be cruel... Just realistic. Compared to a private retirement account, Social Insecurity is a terrible deal. 100% death tax, and pathetic interest rates. People who say it is a good program I ask how many other savings accounts have you opened in the government's name?

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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: The way it should be. Dam* the gov
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2017, 07:15:04 am »
"People who say it is a good program I ask how many other savings accounts have you opened in the government's name?"
I will be using that one in the future whenever I hear the same. Thanks
Jim
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